TRANSCRIPT - Orientation and Mobility Services for Individuals who are Deafblind- A Panel Discussion Ð 5/8/23

>>Aisha: So I have been an O&M specialist for over 20 years. I'm not going to give you an exact number but over 20 years. And I'm actually new to HISD as their Deafblind O&M specialist, but throughout my 20-plus years in education, the education system as an O&M specialist I have had several students. So and of course in the school system we serve 3 to 22 so I have had a high school student, who was Deafblind, as well as an infant baby. So kind of some in between. This year every kid on my case load is Deafblind. I currently have, I think, 13 that I'm servicing right now who are Deafblind. And, again, they range from very small to I have a graduate this year. I have one who is graduating high school. And I think the youngest is 2. I want to say 2 is my youngest right now. So that's just a little bit about what I'm currently doing with the Deafblind population. 

>>Kaycee: Awesome. Thank you. So exciting that Houston ISD has moved to that position to have to find Deafblind orientation and mobility. That's really awesome. Bentley, you want to share a little bit about who you are and your experience? 

>>Bentley: My name is Bentley Posner. I'm currently an O&M specialist with Region 10 in Texas, which is Dallas and then north up to Oklahoma. Currently on my case load I don't have any Deafblind kiddos, but before I started with Region 10 in 2021, I worked at Helen Keller National Center in long island and all of my students, for the most part, were in their 20s and older. But we did have teenage summer programs and we had what we call the Deafblind Immersion Experience or DBIE where kids, typically teenagers with more needs, would come with their families for a couple of weeks to three weeks and learn all these skills and then they would bring it back home. So that's mostly my experience. My youngest Deafblind student I think was like 14 or 15 and my oldest was 92. So huge range. But I love it. It's fun. 

>>Kaycee: Awesome. I think Edgenie can probably relate to that huge range. You want to share about your experience? 

>>Edgenie: Hello. I'm Edgenie Bellah. You may know me from the Texas Deafblind Project on the team. I am also a certified orientation and mobility specialist and I have always contracted -- either worked in O&M with adults. I started off at the Chris Cole rehabilitation center, and then have contracted with various agencies and organizations to serve adults who are Deafblind. My most recent experience was with the state-supported living center here in Texas where I worked with individuals who had intellectual developmental disabilities. All of them were -- there was actually a very high number of individuals who lived at this facility who had vision loss with many of them also having the combination vision and hearing loss. Bentley, like you, I think I've worked with, you know, people in their 90s all the way down to teenagers with all abilities. 

>>Kaycee: Awesome. Thank you, guys so much. For the people attending today, please throughout put in the chat if you have any questions or topics that you want to discuss. We really want this to be an open discussion and the best way to do that is through the chat. So if you have things to bring up, questions, please put them in the chat and we will get to them as we go through today. And while everybody's typing, I will start us off with a question that I'm wondering about, and that is we know -- I didn't introduce myself. Let me do that real quick. My name is Kaycee Bennett. Sign name Kaycee across the chest. And I'm a Deafblind education consultant. I am not an orientation and mobility specialist. My background is in Deaf Education and then Deafblind Education and I have been in this consulting role for four years now. And have learned quite a bit about orientation and mobility in my traveling around the state and seeing what all of these wonderful specialists are out there doing and learning from my colleagues. And something that I have really noticed and wondering more about is how many unique strategies are put in place that do not come in the orientation and mobility textbooks? How many things that we have to do in order to, you know, allow these individuals to be successful in their orientation and mobility goals that you won't learn in your coursework, in your general orientation and mobility coursework or learn from these textbooks. So I'm hoping you guys can share a little bit about some things that you have done that are maybe a little unusual in the orientation and mobility world but that work really well for, you know, at least one of your students who are Deafblind. We know every student is different from every other student who is Deafblind. But something you may share may spark an idea for somebody who is attending who is trying to figure out how they can support somebody. Let's see, let's go backwards. Edgenie, do you want to start us off with a strategy? 

>>Edgenie: Sure. You know, in thinking of the opportunities I've had through the years to work with people who are Deafblind, you know, I would say that when I first started working, most of it was really learning -- I still am learning from the individuals that I have the opportunity to work with. But, you know, initially much of what we were accomplishing, in addition to the formal evaluation so that we could then determine, you know, what instruction was needed. You know, we spent time figuring out communication strategies that worked best for the individual. And that included coming up with an agreed-upon directional touch cues and other ways to communicate during the lesson. You know, so as the years have moved on and our community is getting more and more interested -- and I mean Deafblind community. That including adults who are Deafblind, young people who are Deafblind and, you know, professionals such as O&M specialists. I think some of that is getting formalized, which is really exciting. So it allows us to, in many ways, have just a quick check-in as we're getting to know each other, the student and myself, to make sure that the communication strategies are going to work for them. And so now formalized directional touch cues, such as on the back indicating this for left, straight, turn to the right, stop. That has been really beneficial. But as you mentioned earlier, Kaycee, everybody is so individual that I always want to go with what they are comfortable with and what communication strategy works with them. From the beginning, again, these were strategies that adults who were Deafblind taught me. I think the eye technique was the one that stood out as different and unique. As you all know the traditional guide technique, human guide technique is where the person holds on to the guide's upper arm. And what adults who were Deafblind taught me to do was actually place their arm on the -- they would rest their forearm on top of my forearm so that our hands were in contact with each other. And that not only allowed us to have continual contact with each other but also to be able to communicate as we were walking. And that technique was very effective. So that's one thing that stands out to me. I think as the Deafblind community continues to develop their communication strategy, protactile and everything, we're learning more things every day. Just recently -- and I'm sure my friends Aisha and Bentley know this already, but I was really excited to see a new strategy where the person, who is Deafblind, the receiving guide technique. And I'm using air quotes here because the person who would be giving them that environmental information was actually standing behind them holding on to their forearm using the C-grip and they were giving them gentle movements in the direction that the adult would need to travel. I can't wait to see what else is going to develop. And I think conversations like this is so important so that we can continue to learn together and make this more formalized so that more and more individuals feel -- are receiving the training they deserve and orientation and mobility specialists feel confident in what we're doing. 

>>Kaycee: I love that, Edgenie. I think it's so important to follow the lead of the student or client, which of course is something we do in education anyway. But sometimes we forget to apply that to all things. And so I love that that is what you brought up. Bentley, do you have a strategy you would like to share? 

>>Bentley: Well, something that I didn't learn in school -- or I did but I didn't really learn how to apply it. So I took ASL in college as just something fun to do, something that was different. I never thought I would actually use it. And now here I am married to a Deaf man and his whole family is deaf and I work with deaf people and it's just crazy how that works out. When you're in those classes you learn about Deaf culture and in your O&M classes you learn about blindness and vision loss and acceptance. But what they don't really talk about is how much harder it can be as a culturally-Deaf person to accept that they're losing that sensory channel. Because that's like their whole world. So when you -- at least for me when I would meet with some of these people, they were really put off by me because I'm taking that away or they see me as taking that away. And I'm trying to -- like I'm a deaf person. I'm not blind. I'm not blind. I'm just deaf. I can see just fine. I think really learning to appreciate the culture and try to be mindful that I'm not trying to take this away from you. It's so important. I'm hearing I'll never understand how your culture is. I want you to teach me. It's just having those conversations. How can we work better together. How can I respect your culture better? I'm trying to give you your life back. Maybe you can't see at night and you want to go do things at night, and that's cool. Let me help you. I think that was the biggest thing for me. And then also when I started at Helen Keller I was not super confident in my sign skills, so I worked with interpreters. And most interpreters are not O&M specialists so it's not their fault, it's just a conversation that needed to be had before the lesson, and I didn't know that. Let's say you're asking for a student to stand for traffic. Do you see any cars coming? The interpreter might give them the answer of where to look for cars, instead of saying something like do you see any cars coming? They might not point do you see any cars over there, over there? It's just conversations you need to have beforehand. It's nobody's fault. It's just a learning curve that you have to get over. Those are the two biggest strategies that helped me a lot. 

>>Kaycee: I love that very much. That conversation -- to have that conversation before you get to the street corner is something we talk about a lot in our consulting role, and I think that is something people just don't think about, whether it's an intervener, co-navigator, or interpreter. To have a plan going in is super important. Aisha. 

>>Aisha: Yeah, I think strategy-wise one of the things that's been big for me in learning how to do this new position as only having kids who are Deafblind -- I'm going to go back to what Edgenie was talking about. It's the communication piece. That communication piece of not -- of being able to help my students communicate their needs to others. Saying what best works for them as far as their communication, whether they're using -- if they're using objects or if they're using picture cues or if they need tactile sign. If they are signing, because they still have enough vision. You know, just what works best for them because a lot of times, just like my students who were blind only, they stand back and wait for me to say, well, he's deaf and he needs you to do XYZ. So it's fine to figure out ways to get them to be able to advocate for themselves and come up with ways to how are you going to be able to relay information to people about communication needs is what I'm learning. Edgenie, I'm waiting for you and Bentley to actually give me some more pointers on this too because a lot of times I do find that my students want to sit back and wait for Ms. Edwards to explain he's deaf. He's going to need you to do XYZ. I have been working with my DHH teacher and the VI teacher to work out whatever symbol cards, whatever we're going to use as far as that communication piece to be able to enable my students to have that advocacy and be able to communicate. So I think my biggest thing is just I'm still working out that little piece. I think that's the biggest thing is making sure that the students can speak for themselves. And so I'm seeing a lot of that as a big difference between my students who are just blind and my students who are Deafblind. And I'm having to try to navigate what am I doing as far as am I overstepping or understepping. When do I intervene. I want to make sure, though, as an O&M specialist, whatever I do I'm not stepping on the toes of the DHH teacher and I'm not stepping on the toes of the VI teacher. Like what symbol should we be using? What signs should we be using? Do they know this sign? Do they know that sign? What sign are you using for certain things. And so just trying to make sure. Because I'm a part of a sensory team. We're a team so the three of us are always working together. We have the DHH, the Deaf and Hard of Hearing teacher, the VI teacher, and myself. So we're constantly trying to make sure we're in sync as far as what signs and what symbols and all of those things. And I'm so used to being O&M where I go in, get my students, I pull them out and this is what they're doing and now I'm having to I guess just be cohesive with that team in trying to figure out how that all worked together. Because as Bentley was saying, we want to make sure we pre-teach certain skills and we want to make sure they know certain things before they get to the corner and that they have certain things in place. But before I do those things, I need to know what is the student's best communication and are they using symbols? Are they tactile symbols, are they pictures? Certain students only know certain signs and where. Like one of my students, she likes to be signed on her underarm. Not in the palm. She has paralysis in her hands. Just knowing where on the body she receives certain things. It's a lot. That communication piece is very different for every student and it's very different from when you're just doing regular O&M because now you do have another major sensory loss. And then it's not the same with every kid. Some kids have very hearing than sight, more sight than hearing and so you're constantly trying to figure out that balance of what each kid needs as far as what sensory. And then pulling in the aspect with the family. Because O&M is so drastic as far as what we're doing in school, is it transitioning over to home and to community? Making sure that the families are aware that these are the communication pieces that we're using to make sure that it's being reinforced in the home. So it's just a whole big dynamic of time to make sure that everybody is on board. Another thing, Edgenie, that you touched on was the whole new protactile thing. Wait a minute, I was working with kids who are Deafblind and we were using interpreters and -- I have students who not only are they Deafblind but they're Spanish speaking and they're signing. So at the Deafblind symposium I was very impressed to see that whole family who went to Mexico and did that because I currently have a student who just recently got into the state and we're trying to figure out is he very far behind because he's in eighth grade and never been in school. Is it Spanish? Is it sign? We are desperately seeking Kaycee's support in this. It's that whole communication piece. It's just so big and now this new protactile thing. I'm like, okay, so my signs have not been that great because I have been out of it for a long time but seeing this whole new protactile movement, I'm like there's just so much more there. So I want to really start trying to incorporate a lot of that as well, because I do realize that there's so much feedback that, you know, they're missing from the environment and what's going on as far as what other people are perceiving. Like I probably need somebody tapping me on my back now telling me I'm losing my audience. That piece. 

>>Kaycee: That's awesome. You touched on so many important things there. Edgenie, do you want to add anything on the family piece? 

>>Edgenie: Oh my gosh! Gee, Kaycee, how did you guess? Aisha, I absolutely love that and I think this is true, no matter how old the person is. That we are working with. Just figuring out ways to involve the family and to the level that the person is comfortable with, of course. But, you know, it makes me think that while we were all doing things remote, because of COVID, much of what I was hearing from families is the favorite part of that experience was actually being able to go with their students, their children on O&M lessons so that they could learn the strategies themselves. Learn the terminology. I actually had families contact me and go can you give me a list of O&M terms that I can learn? All of that was -- they really saw that as invaluable and I think embraced it and figured out how to include it in their family life. I also think about the older adults that I worked with who had been hearing and sighted most of their life but due to either disease or just the natural process of aging had lost their vision and hearing. And how meaningful those conversations and times with their family members that they wanted to be part of the O&M training. That was just invaluable. Helping them learn how to know when to step back and give the person a chance to advocate for themselves and communicate for themselves and when to step in and be a partner in that process. Really, I think -- we talked about this earlier. I'm not sure that I gleaned that in college. Maybe I just was, you know, not paying attention during that instructional time. But it was definitely I think, you know, in the day-to-day opportunity to work with people. The importance of family and involving them again at the level that people -- that the individual I was contracted to work with was comfortable with was just so important. 

>>Kaycee: I love that. We've got a couple of questions come in. So the first one is about kind of a specific question. Working with an individual who is Deafblind and wears one cochlear implant and the other side is profoundly deaf. On street crossing and how any strategies that you guys have or any advice that you guys have for that. 

>>Aisha: That, you know, you kind of have to know a little more what is their vision like. How much loss do they have. How much -- how far can they actually see. Are they using any monoculars or anything? Do they have okay vision? How much -- a little more detail would help, I guess. 

>>Kaycee: Some acuity is in the chat too. Sorry. Bentley, did you have something to add? 

>>Bentley: Okay. I was reading it. So right eye is 2200. Left eye, no light perception. So I worked with several people on street crossings that really didn't have a lot of great usable vision. And they also either had a profound hearing loss or they relied on their hearing aids or cochlear implants or one of each for all auditory processing. And it's not a problem but the challenge is that the listening devices just collect this information. It's not very clear on where the sound might be coming from. So with a student with like 2200 and then no light perception on the other side, we really worked on first self-advocacy and declining assistance. Being able to say no and advocate for yourself and turn away. Once they were better with that, we worked on the street crossing part. I don't have one with me but the Heller Keller national website has one and there's a lot of research performed on it. Basically the user stands ready with their cane in the diagonal. They have the card on. It's on a lanyard around their neck. Ideally someone would come up and offer assistance with a tap or people do try to talk like, hey, can I help you? But they tap their arm. The cane user would grab their elbow. Or if they do the over the forearm, they would take hold and cross the street together and wave or say thank you and continue walking. That street crossing card has been like a saving grace for a lot of my students and it can be scary at first, but that's been the biggest thing that's brought a lot of success to my Deafblind students with street crossings. In the rural areas they have a larger sign that's about a size of an 8.5x11 piece of paper to get the drivers to stop and give help. People do that. You might be surprised. It might take a while but it works. That's usually the strategy I would teach, even if I had a student who could see pretty well or they had hearing loss on one side and they really couldn't see, I would teach the card just as a back up. Maybe it's a hard day for hearing or it's raining outside and you can't collect that information. It's good to have that card as a back up. I would check the Helen Keller website. I can try to find a link and put it in the chat too. 

>>Kaycee: Can you share in general what the card says? 

>>Bentley: Let me read. I can pull it up to tell you what it says. Like in small print, please help me. And in larger print "cross the street." I'm deaf and blind. There's a picture of two people walking together. A lot of people don't stop and read the card. They will see someone standing there with a cane and want to offer help, because that's human nature. They'll go up and talk, can I help you? So that's why it's important too to teach them that declining assistance -- and I would practice with my students in a safe place inside our building. I would grab their arm or try to pull their cane or give them a little push and teach them how to decline that assistance and let them take control of the situation. Because that's the biggest thing is you're going to be interacting with strangers so you want to be able to turn that assistance away. Let me find that card. 

>>Edgenie: This is Edgenie -- oh, I'm sorry. Aisha. 

>>Aisha: Go ahead, Edgenie. 

>>Edgenie: I also have had the experience in using the card. Oftentimes we would develop the card together so it would read what the person wanted it to. And sometimes it would, you know, say tap me on the left shoulder if you can help me. Those are very effective and I think in addition to everything -- Bentley, that was incredible. What I would add to it -- and this is an obvious one but just want to put it out there. I think that's why assessment is so incredible. You know, and valuable. We need to know, from what you described, there are indicators the person is not only going to be confused with depth perception but sound and vocalization. In addition to teaching how to decline help, where to go seek help, et cetera, you know, it may also be teaching them ways that they can go in and set up systems for themselves. For example, I've had adults who have made arrangements with store owners and they know at a certain time of day they can go into that store, approach the desk and somebody is more than happy to take off for a few minutes to help them get across the street that they didn't feel confident in. Also just helping them think about alternate routes, you know, is there another street crossing that may be safer for that individual or, you know, perhaps even walking a few extra blocks to avoid a street crossing all together. It's that process of helping the person understand the impact of the dual sensory loss and knowing when they may be having good vision days or not good vision days or environments and deciding for themselves when to use other strategies to remain safe. I hope that makes sense, but those were some thoughts that I had. 

>>Aisha: I agree with both Bentley and Edgenie. What I wanted to add, though, is that the new aspect that I think all O&Mors are dealing with, and it's not even just having the dual sensory loss. With the new hybrid cars, every blind traveler is out here almost crossing streets with a hearing loss. The days are gone when we're going with the surge of the parallel traffic, because you don't hear it anymore, a lot of times. We're all having to come up with new method guides. I'm all ears because it has just gotten so hard now, with all these new cars and stuff, to teach any visually impaired person to know exactly when it's safe to cross the street. We're all struggling there. 

>>Edgenie: This is Edgenie. I would also say especially in the more suburban areas, getting people to pay attention to pedestrians seems to be a huge issue, whether it's, you know, people with vision, hearing, blind, visually impaired, or Deafblind. I mean period, right? I mean, there are times -- I'm going to be a little playful for a minute. But there are times I wonder if waving the cane in the air or something like that would get their attention a little bit better. There have been so many times that drivers are distracted they don't recognize they have a pedestrian about to make a street crossing. I think that's why we need to bring into our lessons talking about these are realities. You may not, with even the best of hearing, be able to hear cars approaching. Using all these strategies. The drivers next to you may not be paying attention. They may be distracted. 

>>Kaycee: We had another question come in about the standardization of signs and signals. Asking if there's a resource, even though it's likely they will be personalized and customized, is there a resource, a starting place for accepted standardized signs for Deafblind O&M or signals. 

>>Aisha: I just thank TSBVI. For most of us here in Texas, we're going there to see what kind of symbols and signs are being used in trying to develop from that, from their systems. 

>>Bentley: Yeah, I mean, I'll say when I was in New York, protactile was still brand new, in quotes. It was not really something we used. We were using something more like haptics. And then I come to Texas and go to the Deafblind Symposium this past year and they're doing this protactile and I'm like floored. I'm like you don't do it for two years and there's a whole different thing to do, to learn. So I think if I were to, quote, unquote standardize anything, I would go to that protactile. But it doesn't always work for everyone. It's another thing. It's the O&M answer. It's the communication piece with your student, figuring out what works for them. 

>>Edgenie: Yeah. This is Edgenie. Bentley and Aisha, you're both so right. And I think that's where learning from other people who are Deafblind is the way to go. Like many of the presenters we have at the Texas Symposium on Deafblind Education, including Deafblind Camp of Texas, who are going around and doing great trainings across the state that are open to everyone. That would be an ideal training. I think what I understand is that many of the interpreter training programs are even beginning to incorporate some Deafblind communication strategies in it, whether it's protactile, which, as Bentley pointed out, that's what we do here in Texas. But, you know, there's also the haptics materials, which has the benefit of being able to be printed. You can actually print out the ones you need. Again, long answer to say I would go to the people who are the experts. That is the individuals who are Deafblind themselves and ask for their guidance in learning. 

>>Kaycee: Yes, and Helen Keller National Center actually has a self-paced course on haptics so if that's something your students are interested in using or currently using, I completed that course and it's done really, really well. There's an app that you can use and there's a book. And so that could be really helpful. But, again, it's only helpful if your client or student is -- has interest in that or wants to use that method for touch cues. But that does exist and that can give you a really great base knowledge, even just to understand touch cues in general. So I do recommend that. Edgenie brought up Deafblind Camp of Texas. We do have a video that we'll watch really quickly. And that is of a man who is an orientation and mobility student. And he was a volunteer for Deafblind Camp of Texas. And he's got some interesting information to share about some strategies that they put in place for some campers that might be helpful to you guys. Nathan, if you'll queue that up. CC, if you'll unmute. 

>>Do you want the whole thing or start at 6:07? 

>>Kaycee: What do you think, Edgenie? 

>>Edgenie: Let's do 6:07. 

>>Kaycee: While you're pulling that up, I'll give just a little bit more background information. So his -- this man's name is Dylan. He is deaf himself and he is a Deafblind -- or is an orientation and mobility student at Deafblind Camp of Texas. He was serving as a volunteer but also working on problem solving some orientation and mobility things. He'll be talking about a young woman who is 16 and is Deafblind and she is in a wheelchair. And he had five going in and getting things ready for her camp experience. Now he's going to talk about the five wondering and the answers he got, the ways that they solved the problems or questions through that. So we will start here and CC, it looks like you're queued up and ready to go. 

>>So I did want to -- this is the interpreter. This is very chunky. It's freezing up. I don't know if anybody else is experiencing that or if it's just me. 

>>Kaycee: Yeah, it looked a little choppy to me too. 

>>Interpreter: Thank you. That was the word. Chunky. Thank you. [ Video ] 

>>So I was thinking about five different questions and when I was looking alt those questions and I started thinking about it, I realized that the answers were all no. And so I had to start thinking outside of the box to find different ways to accommodate Lily and different campers. There were a few simple adjustments that we made that made a huge impact on the Deafblind young adults' experiences. And to make sure that they did not feel as an "other" but they were connected to the community. The accessibility team also worked in partnership with the camp staff. We were able to educate the staff on how to run their activities to be more accessible for all. I mean, again, I want to emphasize the idea that the Deafblind experience is an experience for all. Let's go back to those questions that I recently asked and let's talk about how we answered them. So the first question was can Lily go from the cabin to the main building? I think I just spoke recently about something called universal design. That is both an interior and an exterior concept and it's important to keep it in mind. So we needed to think about is the pathway gravel or is it off-road like a trail? Are you able to navigate that in a wheelchair? Is it even or uneven? These are very difficult things. So what we did was we took a rope and we set posts at various intervals with a rope connecting them in order to guide Lily and other Deafblind youth from the main -- to the main cabin and to the different activity areas. The other question that I had was Lily be able to go in the same doors and entrances that everybody else did? Again, we needed to make an environmental accommodation to make sure that all pathways were more accessible. The third question I had was: Can a person walk or use their wheelchair? Can they travel at night to find their cabin? We needed to figure out some ways to address that. And so what we did was we hung lanterns and lights on that rope and that was a way to have a guide at night to see better. My fourth question was: Is an individual able to locate the toilet or the restroom without a co-navigator? Sometimes because the schedule throughout the day you will have a co-navigator working one-on-one with a young adult. And they work in shifts and they switch out. Co-navigators have training to work with Deafblind individuals in order to provide environmental information so that that person and individual can make decisions on their own. But there were times that maybe Lily was feeling a little overwhelmed or overstimulated and she might have wanted a little alone time and she would maybe prefer to find the restroom on her own. We were able to set landmarks on the wall that were tactile and on tables that would help guide her to find the restroom. We had handmade tactile maps. We created these before the camp. And these tactile maps are used to quote, unquote read the space through maps -- through touch. So this way it gave the person an opportunity to know the layout of the land or the orientation of the buildings on the camp are. The last question I had was: Would Lily and other individuals be able to read a menu would co-navigators? This was an easy thing to address. We were able to do large print, high-contrasting print, and that was a good start. We also printed the menus in Braille. So I did not have a limited role in this. I also worked to -- I wasn't just doing environmental accommodations. We were also working on ways to help the students gain more self-determination through O&M skills. The accessibility team worked together and coordinated the work to standardize everything for a common goal, and that is self-advocacy, self-determination. For Lily and for other Deafblind youth, to be able to have this experience from the Deafblind Camp of Texas, this was knowledge and information they would be able to take with them and hold on and use forever. Thank you very much. [ End of video ] 

>>Kaycee: Awesome. Thanks so much to Dylan for sharing that video with us. Thanks, CC for voice interpreting. We are close to out of time but I want to make sure that we touch on this important topic, which is what you all see as the future of this field. We've been talking today about Deafblind O&M and I'm wondering, you know, just when you're dreaming, what does this look like in the future? I'm going to stop there. Bentley, why don't you go first? 

>>Bentley: Okay. This is Bentley. I didn't even know that a Deafblind O&M-specific job title existed until I met Aisha. And I think that would be fantastic. Even if, you know, there was one per region. Like if Region 10 had one or two would be nice. You know, ideally that would be great. It would be nice if there were more classes in college. I can't get my words straight. Like when you're in your degree, trying to earn your degree, if there were more in-depth classes versus just a couple of discussions. If there was a full semester and it was more immersive and more hands on and you learned more about the Deaf culture and how it impacts. And using an interpreter. Because a lot of people have never used a sign language interpreter and it can be different if you have never used one. That would be awesome. In my dream world, everybody would know sign language. You could do one-on-one. We would have all these great individualized programs. That's what I would like to see. What about you guys? 

>>Kaycee: That's awesome. Edgenie, do you want to go next? 

>>Edgenie: [Signing]. Yes, I would love that. I would also love to take that a step further and to see there being some kind of credentialing where people who have worked hard as O&M specialists to gain this knowledge and skills because of their passions of serving individuals who are Deafblind can get that recognition, whether it's a micro credential or we work through ACVREP to get it. Bentley, you nailed it. I think it's going to have to begin with pre-service training where we're getting some in-depth training and experience within the community and serving people who are Deafblind. Mentored by COMS who have made this their profession, you know, their professional niche, if you will. Yeah, that would be my big dream. And I think we can do it but, again, like I said earlier, I think it means continuing to have these type of conversations and beginning to identify, you know, what are the research articles out there that we all need to have our hands on. What are best practices. How do we get those written up and into curriculum and in the hands of everybody so COMS are feeling confident in doing this. All those steps, just like we have done with teacher of students who are Deafblind and interveners and other professions. I think we can do this. So let's get going! Let's go. 

>>Kaycee: What are we waiting for? Let's do it! Aisha, what about you? 

>>Aisha: I'm absolutely right there with you guys. I just did an interview for a student who is taking the Deafblind courses through Texas Tech and a lot of the questions were asking about my VI kids, Deafblind kids and how do we see, you know, how have I seen the trends changing over this last 20 years or so. You know, we're servicing a lot more people who have multiple impairments and a lot more Deafblind children. Edgenie, I'm sure you know this. I just have come from my last post as being the older blind lead for the State of Nevada. There are so many older blind who are experiencing multi-sensory losses at an older age and we are missing a large population of people. I think we're doing [Inaudible] so I think we have to -- and I think it is going to take some more specialized classes. I cannot say that had I just graduated from college and stepped into this role that I would be ready to be a Deafblind O&M specialist. But thank God, coupled with all my years of experience as O&M, I have had some experiences where I have dealt with people with multi-sensory losses throughout the years. But I can say, no, I did not have specific training enough just coming out of college to be able to be equipped to deal with someone who has, you know, multi-sensory losses. So I do think that we're going to have to have more training and some more classes if we're going to be equipped to come out and serve this population. Or it definitely has to be, as Edgenie was saying, another certification where you go and you take specialized classes and add it on. So we've either got to add classes to what we've already got so that people come out ready to serve all areas like, you know, they say we're supposed to be at O&M. When you work in a very small town, you're it. So you serve every kid that comes through. And that's what it is. And we figure it out. Or we have to have this certification -- add on another certification where we can. Again, with the protactile communication, the Deafblind world is developing their own system and we've got to figure out how we're going to help and get in there and learn these systems. I like you, Bentley, felt lost when I first saw protactile. I'm like what is going on here? Who knew this even existed? So I'm feeling really left behind and I need to catch up. But we need these things in our college courses to tell us what's happening so that we stay on top as well. 

>>Kaycee: Bentley, do you have something to add? 

>>Bentley: This is Bentley. I remember when I was going through my O&M program, it was focused a lot on cane skills and vanilla blindness, just being blind. There was a little bit on active learning and a little bit on early childhood. I really think it should be reversed because on my entire case load of 30 kids, I have two that are academic Braille. The rest have something else going on or like physically, an intellectual disability, a developmental delay, active learners. Like, they're just not vanilla blind. So I think there just needs to be a whole facelift of the O&M, a revamp. I think that would be a good thing to put in there. Dual sensory loss. 

>>Aisha: They give you that, like you said, Bentley. I'm going to have a sprinkle of kids and the rest are going to have vanilla blind. I graduated college and thought I was going to interview my first student and ask all these questions. How long have you been using your cane? Only to find out my first student was nonverbal. 

>>Now what? 

>>Edgenie: True. 

>>Kaycee: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's the case across Deafblind education as a whole. Like I said, I'm not an O&M but I was a TDV. I never had a Braille student ever. And so I think that's certainly an important aspect to keep in mind that we need to be prepared for those students that when we do get them but that we really need a heavy emphasis in serving those students who have multiple impairments. That is the majority. The vast majority of our child count, two-thirds of our population in Texas are emerging communicators. And so that's, you know, need to be prepared for that. For sure. And we are out of time. Thank you, guys so, so, so much for being a part of this discussion today.