TRANSCRIPT - Teaching, Learning, and Relationships Ð 9/23/24 >>Sara: Most of my experience working with students is with students with complex access needs. So I've learned from them how important these relationships that we have with them are. They're very foundational. They're kind of the most important thing that you can do. And this is -- I think this is applicable to all people but the more complex your student is, the more specific and the more refined and -- the more you have to really focus on them because their communication may be a lot more subtle or a lot easier to misinterpret. So Scott and I are going to talk to you about our experience with the education of students with complex access needs and others. And any time that you have a question, please type it into the chat. We have Belinda monitoring the chat and she will get to your questions. We prefer to get to your question while we're still talking about whatever it is you're asking about so we prefer to be interrupted as opposed to waiting until the end. Don't wait, just ask your question. We are also curious about any sort of thing you might want to share with this group. We are all peers here and we learn from you as well. So please feel free to share. Let's go on to the next slide. >>Scott: Hey, everybody. Good afternoon. Thanks for being here with us. We really appreciate everyone that showed up. And to stack on what Sara said, we really appreciate interactive input from you guys. We really like to hear what your -- Sara and I, we know what our experiences are. We know what each other's experiences are at this point, because we've been doing this together for quite a while. But we really -- we find that we learn a lot every time that we're doing a presentation and the attendees speak up and tell us what their reality and experience has been. Please feel encouraged and jump right in whenever and ask a question. But, to get started, we wanted to ask you this question pertaining to our topic today. If you would put into the chat what do you feel is the very first thing that a child learns? I'm talking really early. Like how early am I talking? I'm talking upon emerging into the world. What is the first thing a child begins to learn about? What is a very important foundational thing that a child -- >>Sara: I'm reading safety, comfort. Having their needs met. A connection with others. How to eat. That's an important one. >>Scott: That is. That's a good point. >>Sara: They cry. They get fed. >>Scott: Yeah, having their needs met. >>Sara: Sound of the mother's heartbeat and movement. In utero. And the care, warmth, and comfort. >>Scott: Okay. Yeah, you guys, you know, you said everything I could possibly say, I think. Don't you think so, Sara? The mother's heartbeat. Feelings of safety. Feelings of being protected. Having your needs met. Knowing that nourishment is there, that love and protection is there. You're right. That is the very first thing that a child -- the first thing they do as a baby when the baby is born, they take it and as fast as they can they get it into the mother's arms, the caregiver's arms, so they can start to do that bonding process. And, you know, that's not just -- we look at everything as there's a reason that these things happen. There's a reason things work that way. So why is it that bonding and connecting is one of the first things that happen. There's a reason for that, because it is very, very foundational to every single person on this Earth. So let's go and look at the next slide, unless there's more questions. Anybody else chime in while I was bloviating. Nope? Okay. So when Sara and I were talking about this presentation and talking about the importance of relationships, we came up with this sort of flowchart. And this is how children develop. You know, very first is that feeling of safety. That feeling like I'm okay. I'm not in any danger right now. I'm not going to die. I'm not going to be hurt. I'm not going to starve to death. I'm not going to freeze to death. I am safe. And then from that trust flows out of that because the person that is providing that safety is the person the baby will learn to trust. And from that trust, there comes a certain ease. Relaxed, not to be scared, not to be worried. To sort of open up a little bit more. You have more confidence. The child will develop a confidence in order to meet the world. So from the protective perch of the mama's, daddy's, caregiver's arms, they sort of have confidence to engage with the world. Now this is critical here I think because we have, as educators we have such a focus on independence. Right? Like, our whole thing in writing IEP goals is the child will independently do X. The child will independently achieve this skill to the greatest degree possible. But before you have real independence, you have what's known as interdependence. And that is two persons knowing that they can work together, that they can rely on one another. That's really a critical phase. Because you can become -- you can reach a certain level of independence without having connections with people, but if you don't have that connection, if you don't have that feeling of interdependence that I can rely on you, you can rely on me, then your social relationships and your integration or your place in society will be a little bit compromised by that. So I wanted to really focus on that idea of interdependence as really the first thing to look at as opposed to independence. So, does anybody have any comments about that? Observations? Random thoughts? >>Belinda: I would agree too. I think we tend to have a big focus on independence and sometimes that interdependence, we can forget that that. Occasionally it gets lost. >>Scott: Why don't we go to the next slide. I was going to make a very important point but I think Sara will make that point. >>Sara: Well, you know, that last thing reminds me of people. There are a lot of people who have, you know, who have gone out into the world and have jobs and do not know how to call upon people to help them. And if you don't connect with other people, if we have a really hard time with that interdependence part, we're like I want to do everything by myself, it hampers your ability to learn and grow and also if people don't like you it's hard to get anywhere. You have to have a connection. You have to help people and let them help you. People like helping you. So it's kind of like a way people bond. Speaking of bonding, well, let's talk about this learning media business. This is kind of like, you know, we think about the ways people learn a lot in the vision field and we have these three typical ways that we talk about it in our reports, through vision, hearing, and touch. But what about thinking about this last one? There's one more. Yeah. What about connection? Some of the things that Scott was talking about, the things we have been talking about so far, connection is the first thing that kids learn. And if a child does not feel connected, if they don't feel safe -- you know, we already know through our learning and trauma-informed schools, I'm sure a lot of us have had that training. If a person does not feel safe, they cannot build those neural connections. They have to feel safe. Because they can't even access the part of their brain that would be doing all that academic and categorizing and all those kinds of things. So, you know, we must provide this connection for our kids to be able to learn. And, you know, so the main point of putting this on the learning media slide for us is that we need to consider this as maybe a way kids need, they need that connection in order to learn. They need to be learning through and in the safety of another person. And so this might be a place to start with our actual strategies. We're going to be adapting for everything else too but this might be something that we really need to consider. >>Scott: For reasons we'll go into further, some children, they're not learning and the reason -- one of the reasons -- another they're having a lot of difficulty learning is because they don't have a relationship, they don't have a positive relationship with their teacher or their instructor. There may be times -- I know I have seen a lot of kids in this situation. We want this child to learn X skill or Z skill. But really what the focus of the instructions should be on at that time may be on the child learning to connect, the child learning how to feel safe and trustful in a relationship. I think the idea is that is their learning media. It's an important foundational skill and area of learning. And, you know, Michelle mentioned in the comments, she said adults need support too. You're right. When we talk about relationships, it's not a one-way street. We, the parents, the adults, and the child have to be interdependent with one another. That is key. Let's look at the next slide. Unless there's any -- is there any other comments in the chat that are -- >>Belinda: Yeah. This is Belinda. We have a comment about connection through routines, beginning early and continuing at the school level. Routines are important for helping bridge that connection. >>Sara: Yes. >>Scott: Oh, yeah. Certainly. If you think about the routines, the routines are a form of, you know, sharing the work, right? That's a form of adult/child interaction. In order for a routine to work, the adult has to do their part and the child has to do their part. And if the adult doesn't show up, then the routine will fall apart. So the child learns to trust that the adult is there where they're supposed to be. It's really important, when you're engaged in routines, your attention has to be 100% on that interaction at the time. If you're trying to multitask, you're trying to work with a child with, say, I don't know, a daily living skills or cooking routine but at the same time you're trying to do two or three other things, your attention is not there and may not be there at the critical time. So that child, that sense of trust may be compromised. >>Sara: Yeah. If you try to jump into independence before the interdependence and the safety has been established, the child may not be able to perform at their full capacity because they're afraid of failure. If they're not there yet, if they're not feeling confident and safe like that in their relationship with you, they may not want to try something new because it might not work out. And there's a lot of pressure kids put on themselves in order to succeed. So they need to be safe enough to not succeed. To be like, oops, I messed that up. That's okay. I'm here to help. I'll do that part. Ooh, it fell down. So what? That's funny. We'll clean it up. You know, that kind of thing. >>Scott: That's a real good point, Sara. I think a lot of us have seen those kids who, when they make a mistake in the routine, like they drop something or something's not available right at the moment it's supposed to be there, they can go ballistic. And I think that's based on that level of trust and willingness to sort of know that they will be accepted warts and all. Imperfections and all. >>Sara: Yes. >>Scott: Well, let's go on and look at slide 5. And this was -- Sara, you had talked earlier about kind of about how it's difficult for anyone to actually learn. We think of it as learning is based around the cerebral cortex. That's that outside part, that wrinkly part of the brain but before the messages can get to the cerebral cortex, they have to go through that brain stem down at the bottom, that pink thing. And that sort of stripey avocado-shape thing. That's the cerebellum. Those are all your automatic responses, your reflexes. Breathing, reflexive movements, heartbeat, that kind of thing. But in between the brain stem and the cerebral cortex is the mid-brain. And the mid-brain deals with relationship. The midbrain deals with how you feel about things. How you are impacted, what is the emotional content of the message you're getting. So that is where the relationships have the largest impact. Not so much the cerebral cortex -- like I might sit around and think about how much I love my wife. I might think of how great my mom was when I was growing up -- or not, depending upon the situation. But where it really impacts me is in the midbrain. That emotional memory of of those relationships. So if I'm in a situation where I'm getting sensory information from my body, from my brain stem that's telling me this is a difficult situation. This is a dangerous situation, let's say. Not necessarily dangerous in that I'm going to be killed but I'm going to be embarrassed or I might be humiliated or I might make a fool out of myself. Lord knows that happens sometimes. But the midbrain will take that information and either it can give me a feeling of, oh, it's okay. Relax. It's not a big deal. You've got positive relationships. You've got resiliency and then it can go to my cerebral cortex where I can actually work with it. On the other hand, if my midbrain is telling me this is dangerous, this is bad, I can start to spin. I can start to get a trauma reflex. I get stuck and feeling afraid, not feeling safe. Feeling separated. Not feeling interdependent. So that's the science behind it, behind when we say relationships are key -- positive relationships are key to learning. You can learn without a positive relationship but it's really hard. And the message you get might be a little bit -- [Multiple voices] >>Sara: There's also some other information. You know how -- this is something that I was made aware of more, like the language of it through active learning. But a lot of kids who have had a lot of interactions where somebody wasn't interacting with them at a level they could understand. They experienced those interactions as a failed interaction and, you know, since a young child is very much centered in their own self -- because that's all they know -- they feel like in an emotional way, maybe not verbally, but they feel like they are to blame. So they have these failures of interaction and repeatedly over time. So one of the things you have to remember when you're approaching a child -- and this is why we have some guidance to that later on -- is that a child may become dysregulated by somebody's approach, a person's approach. That can go straight down to the very brain stem. Our social system, our social interactions, that's where the messages -- they kind of go right down into the survival system. Because for humans we're very -- our social system is hugely responsible for our survival. That's why they're so intertwined. If you just think about where those messages go, that is where they go. It will go right straight down and become quickly disregulating and we have to find a way to help the child relate to they can get back to the reasoning. Or other ways to calm them down. But it's something to think about. It doesn't mean it's your fault. If somebody becomes dysregulated because you approach, it doesn't mean they don't like you, it might mean they're anxious because here's somebody. >>Scott: Talking about the student population, kids with sensory mobility disabilities, complex needs, they may react in a different way than a typical person might. And we may need to connect with them in a different way than [Lapse in Audio]. I think we've got some ideas about how we do that. >>Sara: Yeah, yeah. So the next slide, if you're ready, Scott, would be, you know, this is kind of looking at more of the nuts and bolts. How do we connect. And so when you're thinking about, you know, if you can go back to that early development and your experience as a parent or an aunt or an uncle. But when you have a little, you know, baby, like they're very early on in their life and, you know, you're looking at this baby and you just spend a lot of time looking at that baby and trying to find out -- it's like an inquiry. You're curious about this little person. Like, what is it about you? What do you like? What do you want? What do you need? We're very responsive to those little ones. And it's because we're trying to figure out who they are. What are they -- what's their temperament like. And, you know, we're very much observing them. We're very much seeing what they do. And Lilli Nielsen talks about this thing called the being together. That is something she talked about in the Are You Blind? Her 1990 book. That is a time when you are observing this child and finding out the new answers of them, their style, the things they like, the things they don't like. The people they like. The people they don't like. Their interactions and movements. You're doing that before you try to interact with them. Like we talked about, they may be responsive to different kinds of things than the other people you've met in your life. So you want to find out a way that you can start to be with them without being an imposition on them. And then hopefully once you do that, you want to get to know them but you don't want to make it an unpleasant situation. Because you can't just force yourself. You have to know what are they like. You have to really, really observe deeply. Scott's going to talk more about that, even. >>Scott: Let's go to the next slide then. Sara is talking about the deep observation. So, yeah, these children may have very eccentric ways of being and you really want to try to put yourself in their place. Really try to develop some level of empathy, which is not easy to do because they can be so different in the way they act and react. You want to know -- think about why is the child do what they do. What need do they fill? What are they trying to communicate to you? Oftentimes we might look at what a child does and make a snap decision based on what seems the most logical for us, in our reality from our experience, but it may be very different for that child. So talking about deep observation, this is the first thing you want to do. Before you dive in and start to put your hands on a child and try to teach them things, you want to really try to see if you can figure out who they are and use that to guide you into your interactions with -- your initial interactions with them. First of all, review the existing information. You can talk to the family. You can talk to the past teachers. You can talk to the teaching assistants. You can talk to siblings. Really anybody who has an experience with this child you can sit down and get the existing information. You know, you want to know what sensory channels do they use. Are they a visual learner? Do they use touch? Do they use their auditory in a way to gain information, as opposed to simply passively taking in information? You want to look at what their likes and dislikes are. This is very key to define a like not as something we like or we think is appropriate from our point of view. The child may be doing things for different reasons than we give it to. If the child is engaging in a certain behavior, playing with certain objects or doing certain things, there's a reason that they're doing that. That can give you information about what is driving them. So, for example, if a child hits, if a child hits or let's say a child bangs things a lot or a child throws things or a child pulls hair, our interpretation might be that this child is aggressive. That this child is angry. That this child is -- this child has aggressive tendencies. Now, that could be it but it might be something completely different. It might be not at all related to what you're thinking it is. I mean, some kids like to bang things because it gives you some really good sensory information. And on a certain level of development, it's not only fun but it's essential that you learn to use your body that way and get information that way. Like pulling hair, that could be aggression but it could also be a child trying to -- babies do that. Think about your young babies. They grab your hair and will pull on it because they're trying to be closer to you. Maybe they like the way that feels, that sense of pulling on, you know, a fabric. Might be giving them some information that they need at that time. So when you look at their likes and dislikes, look at whatever they do, everything they do. And hold off on trying to assign a rationale for that at this time. Look at their communication modes. Do they use words. Do they used grunts, sounds, vocalizations at any time? Do they express emotions through the type of sounds they make? You know, do they use movement? Do they gesture. Do they use the whole body movements. Do they use part body movements. Look at everything in how they might be communicating. If you look deeply into that that will help you when you start to interact with the child because you'll be able to perhaps read their messages better and respond more appropriately. Along the same lines what kind of touch and interaction do they like? Do they even stand for you to be within five feet of them? Some kids, they want you to be in your space and they be in theirs. That's the way they are and that's where you start to work. Some kids like to be roughhoused. Some kids like that type of stuff. That may be where you need to go. You want to go with it. Some kids really like gentle touch. Some kids like that really deep, you know, type of connection through touch. So really consider that, look at the existing information and watch how a child reacts to different types of touch. And finally, and very importantly, what kinds of situations stress them out? If at all possible, avoid stressing the child out because that's going to create more trauma. I know there are times where you got to do what you got to do because you're in a school and there are things you have to get done. There's places you've got to be. I understand that. We get that. But the more you can avoid that, the more you can go with allowing the child to have a little bit more say in what situations they have to be in, the less stress they'll experience and the greater trust, the more positive a relationship you'll have. So that's deep observation. Is there any -- anybody have anything to jump in on that about? I know y'all -- >>Belinda: Yeah, we have a few good comments. Talked about student interests, surveys. Parent and teacher interviews as part of that process to gathering information. And then Michelle is asking are they sensory seeking? Gathering information from their environment, from what's around them. >>Scott: Yeah. Some kids are very passive. Some kids are so passive to the extent I have heard people say this child doesn't like anything. Or this child doesn't do anything. And that is decidedly false. Every single person likes and dislikes certain things. Every single person does something. It may not be readily apparent to us, it may not be the way we would like them to do those things, but I guarantee, you know, there's not a child out there that doesn't have an interest. There's not a child out there that, you know, doesn't have some sort of a -- doesn't -- there's not something they don't do, that they don't have any interest in. >>Sara: Yeah. I think a lot of times the kids who end up being very passive are those who don't have access to much information at all. And maybe most of their experience has been kind of more like people do things for them or move them around instead of doing those things with them and inviting their participation. But let's go on to the next slide. Just a little bit more about deep observation, if you haven't heard enough. Mainly, this is the summary. It's really about -- we've said this several times but it's really about who they are. Really wanting to know what is your personality like? In order to connect we have to know what do we have in common. How can I connect with you. So I want to know -- it is kind of about what they can do but it's more -- instead of thinking about what they can do, like a test-style, like can they perform this or that. It's not a performance. It's more about what they do without any interference. What do they do that shows who they are, who they think they are. And that just means no prompting from an adult. No telling them what to do. Interference can mean they have something to play with but it's not going to be somebody telling them how to do anything. Those are some things to help you with your getting to know this child and to slow down and to really just, like, you know that it's a worthy -- it's worthy time spent deeply observing and not interacting immediately. So let's go on to the next slide. >>Scott: So after you've done this deep observation, what's the next step? Next step is we suggest you do what's called "being together." We got this from Lilli Nielsen. I think that was in the book Are You Blind? She talks about this as being the second stage of what she would do with a child. And she calls it just being together. And so it's not trying to force any type of thing on the child. It's just simply being there with them. And so sort of the process we would suggest going through is this, which is number one to center yourself. To get yourself straight. To do away with all external distractions. Don't try to multitask. You set the time aside to be with the child and that's the only thing you're going to do. Breathe. Take some deep breaths, you know, be aware of your own tension you may have in your body. And this -- we don't say this lightly. Some kids are sort of -- we talked about the need for trust to be a two-way street and you're building interdependence. So and some children are a little bit scary to work with sometimes, maybe because they can be aggressive and could hurt you in some way. But also because sometimes we as teachers are worried that we are failing if we can't get the child to do something. If we can't make the child learn something. I think sometimes we come into these situations with children very anxious about how we're going to look or how we're going to maintain our view of ourselves as a competent educator. So, you know, let that go. Let that go. Just center yourself. Relax. And try to get as close as the child lets you. That may be on the other side of the room. That might be on the floor five feet from them. It could be right beside them. You can play with that distance but play with it slowly. You can always add more in but the minute you get too close and there's going to be that spark of anxiety and then you're back to square one. Move very slowly. Move very slowly. And the child, whatever they're doing, try to imitate that. Try to show them this is that shared attention, showing that you are aware of the child and you're paying attention to what the child does. They may be doing something stereotypical. They may be doing what we often call a self-stim activity. And go ahead and imitate that kind of thing. If they're vocalizing in sort of an usual way, go ahead and imitate that vocalization. You're trying to show the child that you are attending to them. That you are there with them. And you'll see -- Sara, I know you have seen this sometimes with kids that you start to do this and you see the kid sort of do this double take. Like, oh, wow. You're doing that too. Because they're so used to us trying to imitate us, the fact that we're sort of listening to them sort of blows their mind on occasion. So you can imitate their affect as well. If they're being kind of silly and goofy, you can do that. If they're being gruff and grumpy, if they're vocalizations are sort of like the rrr, you might do that sort of thing too. Within reason. You want to keep it a little bit under control. If they're getting out of their box, I wouldn't jack them up too much but basically you want to imitate the actions and affect so they see. When I'm talking to somebody telling them about a really bad day I had, if they're laughing and smiling, you know, I'm like, dude, you're not listening to what I'm saying. So the kids are getting it the same way. Don't assume these guys don't know. Don't assume they don't have a very full emotional life, that they're not very observant. They will be checking that out. You know, if the child needs a break, you know, they'll let you know. From your deep observations, if they get tentative about the interaction, move back. Maybe it's time to call it a quits for the whole day. But just be very aware of their reactions and do adjust yourself accordingly. So that's being together. Now, what if the child has a sensorimotor impairment, how do you do being together? How do you let a child know you're attending to them if perhaps they're blind, perhaps Deafblind and have difficulty moving? >>Sara: We can go on to the next slide. There's a couple of comments. There's one person who says they love imitating students, especially mouth movements and facial expressions and sounds. And another person says so many environments are noisy. Would you try to have more of a controlled environment so the student is not reactive? That depends on the student and on everything else. You can kind of get into a little corner with them so that your sounds are kind of more reflected and bouncing off the walls so you're kind of a little bit more enclosed with them. You can -- and when you're close by, a lot of times, if the child will let you be close, you can do those things close up to their ear so they really can differentiate and discriminate that somebody is right there doing it. They can feel your breath. They can feel your closeness. So that they know somebody is actually responding to them and they can feel that through the body. If they're touching your body. If they're allowing this -- if a child is overstimulated by a noisy environment, if you can, I would say yes take them out and try some things and try your bonding in a place where they can actually pay attention to you. I did have a student at one point who could, you know, in our classroom, which was an Active Learning classroom and very busy visually in every sort of way. There were a lot of distractions. We took her out to a very plain, boring room to have some kind of one-on-one interaction. And in those situations she could really pay attention visually to her communication partner and notice what they were doing with their bodies. Imitate actions, which was very beneficial to her. You're going to have to think about how your student is, if it's okay with your opportunity to leave the room. Do they need to take somebody familiar with them. It's a lot of planning but definitely that is something to consider too. That's a good question. I think in the interest of time we should probably move on to the next slide, which is tactile -- oh, wait a second. We already -- sorry. We didn't talk about that one. We can go back, David. I'm sorry about that. There is a time when somebody who is unable to detect your presence if you're not close to them. And so you may -- these are some strategies you may use to ease yourself into that child's world. If you offer your hand and your palm is up, it's generally not considered -- most kids I've tried this with have not been like get away, but sometimes they are. I move a little further away and sometimes they'll reach out and say, hey, are you there, by touching. Then once you are able to make physical contact, you can show the child that you're with them by moving with them or even by making their vocalizations -- because they may be able to feel those things through their body if their hearing is super impaired. And then, you know, you do the same things that you do with a child who has vision and can interact with you from a little bit of a distance. You match their pace, their rhythm, and their mood because mirroring builds trust. If you're in the same emotional state with them, then you're going to be more likely to tune into where they're at. And if you mirror them, that's going to help you get into a similar emotional tone with them. And that will build trust all of that stuff Scott talked about is still in effect. It's just there's a tactile component to it now. And let's move on to the next slide now. >>Scott: Talking about hand under hand. Of course, the way that you touch is pretty good for building trust. You know, a child who is -- if you grab a child's hand -- this is a pretty old topic, really, hand under hand is. But I find that you still see it being hand over hand being used quite a bit. The thing about doing hand over hand, it's not just the child won't learn to be as independent, you know, because you're manipulating their hand. It's very difficult for them to actually learn to do things independently. But from the standpoint of what we're talking about today with trust and social and positive relationships, if you grab somebody's hand, it's very disrespectful. Think about if I came up to you and I grabbed your hand without really permission. You would feel very offended and perhaps even anxious about that. And it signals -- my grabbing a child's hand and moving it signals to them a lack of confidence in them. It signals a lack of my belief in their independence, they're able to do it, to do things. Hand under hand takes longer to do but in the long run it builds a much more positive relationship between you and the child. A child will be more willing if a child has confidence in themselves and trust in you, they'll be a lot more willing to learn from you as time goes by. Don't think that -- I think sometimes we believe that children with multiple disabilities, children with complex access needs, we think they don't have a full inner emotional life, that they don't feel things like embarrassment or they don't feel things like resentment. Or they don't feel things like lack of self-esteem. But I think that's false. I think every human being has a full emotional life and they're impacted by the world and they react to it in the same types of ways. They may not demonstrate it as the way that we're used to but they feel it and it impacts the way -- it negatively can affect the way that they interact with you and interact with the world. Unless there's any other comments, we'll go on to the next slide. Keep it moving. Keep it moving. >>Sara: So, you know, also you have to really -- sometimes hand over hand arises because we're in a hurry and we want the child to get these things done. We want them to touch this many things before we leave. And the effect of that could be pretty detrimental to the child's learning. The thing about hand over hand is that if somebody is moving your body for you, it's very difficult for you to build memory. It's very difficult for you to figure out what information you want to get. Because if somebody is touching your arm or our hand, you're really focused in on the social part. You're really focused in and your survival system may be kicking in. And then you cannot pay attention to all of the things that are under your hand. So even if somebody is moving your hand to the object, you're actually not able to pay that close of attention to the object they're moving. You're paying attention to the hand that's on your hand. So think about -- just think about that it's detrimental to the learning that you want them to be having. It's just the way the body works. It's the way the tactile system works. It's working against the tactile system to trigger that other, you know, the back of the hands and the hairy skin, because that's a social system. Don't let the schedule be the boss of you. You know, the student needs to be actually learning things and they can't learn that well if you're putting their hands on stuff. That's just not going to get through. And it's really more important to establish trust than to complete an activity. Don't worry about whether the activity gets done. It's more about whether you're successfully being together and, you know, it's really the child's right to decide when, how, and by whom they want to be touched. It's something that we as vision professionals have to explain to other people all the time and so we have to model that by, you know, not letting the IEP, the routine, anything like that, the end result determine how we interact. Hand under hand takes longer. We have to entice the person to interact with us and make it feel very safe. And then the shadowing and all the good skills will come from that, as long as we don't resort back to hand over hand. So let's move on to the next slide. >>Scott: I like that prioritizing the relationship rather than the IEP. I mean, you're not going to get to the IEP if the relationship is not supportive of it. So co-creating routines. We mentioned routines earlier on. How does this tie into relationships. So there's a sense of authenticity. You have to be comfortable with the interaction. You need to be serious about it. You can't just be going through the motions. You have to believe what you're doing with the child. And the child will know that. You've got to be natural in it. So one of the easiest ways to do initial routines with kids is to place it on communication. You have a greeting routine. You can do any kind of routine. You can do a routine around making fart noises together. Come on. If that's what the kid wants to do, you can make a routine around that. If a kid likes to beat a stick on the table, you can build a routine around that. It's the type of thing, like that sort of give and take, that imitation that you can build it on. Real simple things. Don't worry, you know, doing functional routines are important and you want to do that as well, but a lot of these routines based on communication and likes will be more motivating to the child. By the same token, if you can incorporate their likes into a functional routine, that routine will help to sort of build more trust. Because the child will feel like, oh, I'm having a great time with this guy. Or this lady is the bomb, man. She's cool to hang out with. So, for example, if a child likes to tap things, you can incorporate tapping into a daily living skills. You can incorporate tapping with a toothbrush into it. Again, the important thing is not so much that you complete this routine in that moment or the child does so much independently a routine, as they build a positive relationship that they have a fun time with you, an enjoyable time with you. Over time, as your relationship matures, some of the quote, unquote weird behaviors are developmental and they may just start to fade as the child becomes more socially integrated. Again, this takes more time than perhaps giving some type of consequences for inappropriate behavior. But it will be more deep and long lasting and it will result in a better relationship between the child and the adults, which will carry over into so many other areas. You know, so when you're engaged in routines, figure out how much independent time the child needs. Do they need breaks from you. Also consider yourself. Do you need breaks from the child. Find ways to sort of work those breaks in so that there's a flow to the routine but you're not becoming -- neither one is becoming too overwhelmed in a situation that's difficult. >>Sara: The last couple of slides are things you can learn a whole lot more about. We have run out of time but there are links at the very end to a number of different Coffee Hours that are on calendars and routines. You know, that are very helpful in continuing to process this kind of information. So I encourage you to go and check out some of those Coffee Hours that we have had in the past. And learn more. There's more to learn.