TRANSCRIPT - TSBVI Coffee Hour: Driver or Active Traveler- WhatÕs the Role of the VI Professional? Ð 12/5/22

>>Cindy: I am so pleased the opportunity came up for Chuck and I to present on this. We were able to present at SWOMA, our regional O&M conference, and this is a condensed version of the presentation, but we have a lot of slides and a lot of information to cover. I have been so pleased to work with Chuck for over ten years now as we have been doing our online -- excuse me, our face-to-face weekend program that focuses on safe driving with low vision here at TSBVI. And we've just become a really enthusiastic group of presenters about being able to present this information on bioptic driving, because it is such hard information for families to find the -- the accurate information that the families need. I'm going to go ahead and share my screen and we'll get started on our slides. Chuck comes from West Virginia. He has been doing this work in bioptic driving for over 40 years and we have been very fortunate that he's able to share so much with us as our work at TSBVI has increased on this topic. And questions kept coming up at SWOMA. What is the VI professional's role? Because when driving comes up I think it's the oh, no, that's not where my credentials are. But those words "transition planning," getting that access to transportation or how you travel is essential in transition planning. And we think of all the areas of the ECC, getting to where you want to go outside of the home. It's just critical for our students. And then towards the end I'm going to talk about we have been able to create online modules for both bioptic driving and related to that, using a telescope. Those two support each other and we want everyone to know about this free resource that's available. So Chuck and I, as we work together to prepare this, we each are going to have about 24.5 minutes to cover our slides and these seven goals, it's a lot to take on. We want to give a quick overview of bioptic driving, address some of the misconceptions that are so common and make this a poorly-understood topic. Take a quick look at the visual criteria, because each state has some parameter of who meets the guidelines to drive or not. And then considering the other requirements, because driving is about so much more than just vision. It is a demanding task and there are a lot of other aspects that come into that. We also want to address what is -- especially the COMS because they do more of that focused work in travel. The COMS' role in that pre-driver readiness. What are good pedestrian skills that help you become ready to be a safe driver. And then I'm going to quickly, because we have been doing in the driver's seat, that weekend workshop for 12 years now. We have had over 160 families with a student attend. And it's just given us some -- kind of that helicopter view of the value of this workshop. And then I'll give how to access those online courses. Chuck, it's over to you. 

>>Chuck: Very good. Thank you, Cindy. For individuals who are attending this podcast, whether you become directly or indirectly involved in bioptic driving or other alternate means of transportation, there are some terms that you should be apprized of in or other related information. The first term that I would like to go over with you this evening is what we refer to as, quote, bioptic driving. I personally like to define the functional aspect of driving as follows. And it actually was generated or originated from a doctor by the name of Dr. Lynnee Noon, a former diplomat in low vision rehabilitation practicing out in the Mesa, Arizona area. She defined bioptic driving as the operation of a motor vehicle by a person who uses one of these duo optical lens systems to accommodate for, quote, known central vision loss. Next slide, please. So take a look at this bird's eye view. A lot of times people kind of overexaggerate when you say you're a low vision driver or you're legally blind and you use bioptics for driving, they get the worst connotation from that. Oops. 

>>Cindy: Sorry. 

>>Chuck: No problem. 

>>Cindy: I clicked the wrong thing. Let me get back to it. 

>>Chuck: There we go. Okay. So we were talking about a bird's eye view of the lateral or horizontal parameters of the typical, quote, low vision bioptic driver. Keep in mind that just like a normally-sighted driver, the para central and peripheral and mid-peripheral fields of view of the typical bioptic driver are as normal as the normal-sighted driver. It's just that cone of detailed vision that's impaired. This is where the mild to moderate level of vision loss comes in. Next slide, please. There are some terms that oftentimes people who are rather novice or new to this area -- let's go back one. When we talk about bioptic driving, people get the wrong impression. Webster defines misconceptions as a view or opinion that is incorrect or a false idea or belief. So I'm going to share with you a couple of these. I've listed six but we're going to go over at least three of these in subsequent slides. The first three are as follows: Low vision drivers need to use or view through that miniature telescope to see. Doesn't that sound kind of unusual or nearsighted? Secondly, low vision drivers view continuously through that small miniature telescopic portion of their bioptic while driving. Again, wrong impressions of what's taking place. And, next, few states, if any, allow bioptic driving for those with mild to moderate levels of central vision loss, much less the use of bioptics. So in subsequent slides we're going to go over and show you in reality what is really meant by these. Next slide. In reality, a person who uses one of these prescription bioptic telescopic lens systems actually view through the larger carrier lens about 90 to 97% of the time. And, if possible, I'm hoping -- I'm going to hold up a typical example and present it to the camera here of what a prescription bioptic telescopic lens system looks like. The larger carrier lens contains correction for refractive errors along with the miniature telescope which may appear in one or both eyes in the ocular lens end. So the greater majority of viewing time through the bioptic -- and remember a bioptic is really a lens system. It's just not that miniature telescope. So the user for about 90 to 97% of the time, they're going to be looking out as far as they can what we call eye lead time. And from side to side about 90 to 97% of the time. The other 3% to 10% of the time they're going to be dipping down into that miniature telescope for refinement of their mild to moderate loss of central vision. So they're going to be going after detail vision, better color perception, et cetera. Next slide. How is the device actually used? The telescopic portion of the device? Well, the user would tilt their head slightly backwards so they're looking directly below the housing of the telescope. In other words, the upper part of one's pupil runs parallel with the bottom of the housing of the telescope. And they're going to be using this position for about, again, 97% of the time. They're going to be looking out as far as they can. The faster you go, the further out you look, and they're also going to be looking from side to side. Much wider than the span of the roadway. Oftentimes we say from door on one side to door on the other side of the road. When you want to perceive something in detail, one simply dips down into the telescope. That term used there is what we call a fixation going from unmagnified vision to magnified and back is what we call a fixation. In that period of time which transpires during that time is usually no more than one to two seconds in length. When does such a person use the telescope? Only when you have a straight stretch of roadway and there's good sight distance ahead and there's an absence of other critical objects or forms in one's surrounding space cushion. Next slide, please. When we teach individuals -- and we do this year after year at TSBVI. We start out on foot and advance to a passenger in car mode. But some of the things we reinforce with the person using both their carrier and then their telescopic vision is as follows. When a person dips down into their telescope, depending on the strength of the telescope, they will experience what we call a nearness illusion. In other words, if they dip down into a too powered telescope, what they're viewing through the telescope will appear to be two times closer. If it's three power, three times closer, et cetera. The stronger the telescope the smaller the magnified field of view in most instances. The reason I say most instances is because sometimes you can have a wide-angled telescope which offers a broader field of view. Usually we don't advise lateral scanning when viewing through the telescope and the reason is everything you view through the telescope in a magnified mode moves in the opposite direction to your head turn. So it becomes quite confusing. Because of the fact there's physical distance between the eye ball and the carrier lens or the eyeball and the back end of the telescope, one is able to maintain some type of reference to their periphery, whether that's a stationary object or a moving object. And that physical distance is what we refer to as vertex distance. VERTEX. And the last thing that I'd like to share with you that we go over is what we call the Jack-In-The-Box effect. And this is something that has to be introduced from being on foot to in-car, especially beginning as a passenger in the car before you integrate into the driving task. What happens there is when something enters that magnified field of view, when the viewer's looking through the telescope, if they suddenly find out there's something that they think they're going to collide with, the first thing you want to teach them is to come up and out of the telescope and find out the true distance of that object or form from the front of their vehicle to the object. Next slide, please. Now, we mentioned to you as one of the misconceptions, a lot of times people think there's very few, if any states, that allow the use of telescopes for driving. That's by far just the opposite. At the present time there are 48 licensing jurisdictions across the United States, considering there's 51, 48 that currently allow driving with bioptic lens systems. The only three states that strictly prohibit them currently are: Utah, Iowa, and I say with reservation Connecticut. And the reason I say it with reservation, Connecticut, back in May, have passed a parent bill and currently they're in the process of developing vision training and testing standards. So actually we now have 49 licensing jurisdictions that currently accept the use of the telescopes for driving. This is a far cry from back in 1983 when we began our research in the State of West Virginia, there were only 13 states from East Coast to West Coast that would recognize and allow the use of scopes for driving. Next slide. Now, because driver licensing is a state-regulated function, each state is going to look at driving a little bit different, even though they may be next to a state that may be a little bit more conservative versus one that may be a little bit more liberal. This slide provides you with the level of carrier lens vision. The vision that's unmagnified that has to be achieved by a person with mild to moderate levels of central vision loss in each state indicated by their state initials, starting with 20/40 all the way to 2200. So each one of these states with the exception of Utah, Iowa, and with guarded recognition Connecticut, allow the use of scopes. But each state -- some states are a little bit more conservative -- for instance those that fall between 20/40 and 20/70 versus those that are a little bit more liberal, those fall between 20/80 and 20/200. The states indicated as bold green, those fall in between 20/40 and 20/70 actually allow the individual with low vision to use the telescopic portion of their device to reach that restrictive level. So in reality even those states allow low-vision driving at lower levels. Those states down in the 20/200 area that have green, there's no carrier cutoff in those states. Those in the mauve color are just meant to indicate those are the states that are probably the most liberal across our nation. Next slide. So if you happen to be from the State of Texas, this will provide you as an example. Even though podcast members are from various states, this will give you an idea if you're from Texas what the vision requirements are for the State of Texas. For example, through that larger carrier lens, you have to have an acuity in the better functioning eye that falls between 20/80 and 20/160 inclusive. Secondly, you have to show improved visual acuity to 24/40 or better with no greater than a 4X mounted telescope. Your view has to be at least 140 degrees visual field. While color vision is tested is not means for denial. That only applies for commercial driver's licensing purposes. And you have to have adequate cognitive ability with no other physical problems that would preclude safe driving. Next slide, please. Now, in addition to vision requirements, there's also other training requirements for novice or new bioptic drivers in the State of Texas. When we talk about novice drivers, we're talking about those who've never attained an instructional permit or an actual driver's license. For example, if an individual is less than 18 years of age, they are required, with no questions asked, to participate and achieve a passing score of 32 hours of classroom instruction. That is absolute and mandatory. They are also required, before they participate in behind the wheel training, they must apply for and pass their written instructional permit test. All novice drivers less than 18 years of age are required to participate in at least 44 hours of behind the wheel training with at least ten of those hours of night training. If you happen to be 18 years of age or older, then you're required to participate in a minimum of six hours of classroom training, which can either be in-person or online prior to permit testing. And then all of the other requirements are the same as listed above. Even if you're 18 years or above and you're a bioptic user, you have to participate in those 44 hours of behind the wheel training. Now, before one enters Texas behind the wheel training, which involves both passenger car and behind the wheel training, it's a good idea -- especially starting no later than the middle of school through the conclusion of high school -- that a person participate in pre-driver readiness training and develop the competencies as listed on this slide, which center around basically safe pedestrian skills. So you want to achieve these before you actually start bioptic driver training. And they are as follows: You have to be able to take in, retain or remember, and then be able to follow route instructions. This applies not only on foot but eventually when you go to be screened for behind the wheel training. Next, you have to be able to travel and then reverse a route of travel on foot. And this could be multiple blocks and multiple directions. Thirdly, you have to be able to detect, identify, and then react in time to critical objects or conditions presented during that particular time of day. And lastly, without reservation, you must -- I repeat, you must be able to safely, confidently, and effectively cross both stop sign as well as traffic light-controlled intersections. Next slide, please. Instead of taking copious notes, anyone who is attending this podcast or if you have friends who go back and review this, if you want to obtain copies of everything that I've discussed, whether it applies to something on foot or passenger and car, all you need to do is either contact Cindy or myself. But myself at my home e-mail address. That is chuckhuss@hotmail.com and we will forward a step by step guide to reinforcing these predriver readiness skills which are especially applicable for novice bioptic driver candidates. At this point, Cindy, I'll pass it back to you. 

>>Cindy: Thank you, Chuck. That slide 14 that I was looking at that listed those pre-driver readiness, the pedestrian skills, I think is so important for every VI professional because your whole case load of students I think that applies to. Whether we're doing it inside the school building, around the school itself or out on an O&M lesson. I am an active traveler. I prefer that term to non-driver. We represent this topic in the driver's seat workshop. I think a lot of our students -- we're finding this across the country -- that age of 16, teenagers are not, as in previous decades, not automatically becoming a driver at the age of 16. They may wait until 18 or 20. And there are a number of reasons for that but because I have made the choice to be an active driver, I want students and families in the room to hear about the -- there is still the ability to be independent. It is, I think, a mindset shift because we are a country that for 100 years has dedicated itself to the automobile. And fortunately in the 21st century we're getting more and more options of how you can get yourselves around. Technology has helped with that. And in the room I'll throw out the question -- because I think it applies -- is why would somebody choose to be a vegetarian? There are specific reasons. You may not like the taste of meat. It might be a budget issue. Concern for animals. In a similar way I want to ask students to be an active traveler, what comes out of that that's positive? And it took me a while to find my voice on this that I feel a connection to the community, because I do a lot of walking or I'm riding the buses. I am pleased that I am automatically getting exercise during the day. I'm not adding another vehicle with just one person inside of it on the road. So it's that whole there are positive aspects of this and I want students and families to be aware of that. So those transportation options -- and whether you think of when I'm visiting with students and they're teenagers and that forecasting ahead, what do you think, what kind of community -- size of community do you want to be living in? Rural, suburban, or urban? And for the younger group, very often urban is the answer because there's high appeal on that. But we have students who very definitely can say they like living more rural. Those first three -- because I did live rural before I moved to Texas. I did a lot of walking and I have vision to be a safe cyclist. Arranging rides with family and friends -- and I'll talk a little more about doing that as a reciprocal exchange. And then hiring a driver. And I think there's a definite lesson that can be involved in figuring out that contract and how do you find a driver to hire. In communities of greater size, taxis can still be available. Ride share. More and more students are aware or families have used this in some way for a vacation. Paratransit is available in some communities and then mass transit. Covering these options with your student and then helping them think about what's my plan B if plan A doesn't work? And these next few slides I'm talking about ideas of how you can sit down and work on this lesson with your student on them becoming more -- taking more ownership of their independent travel, because they are still able to have independence. It is just a different perspective because you're doing it differently. Then some kind of my top five of how I figure it out. How life is different when you are not at the wheel. And I want students to have that sense of I have a responsibility for am I helping in planning the route? What is my role in helping to pay the cost of transportation? I definitely want students to know that. The average cost -- and this is -- the number online says $900 a month to operate a vehicle. So in smaller towns or a less fancy vehicle, it may only be $700 a month. But when you add in all the gas, repairs, tags, car payment, all of that together. I want students to know that cost. It's a big responsibility to be a driver. And it is a privilege. I want them to think about the expense decision. We call it your time or your dime? And it's less than a dollar for me to ride the bus but it takes longer. If I want to pay for a ride share to get home, then that needs to be part of my budget and having that conversation with students. And then talking with their families about it. Flexibility. If the ride you're meeting, that driver's schedule changes or the bus is late, okay, how am I going to accommodate for that in my day? What's my preferred back up plan? And then having good use of wait time. And I commented on having that conversation with students. Where is it that we need to go? And I think for most of us getting to work happens most days of the week. It's routine. It's just part of what you do. It's those other tasks, it's those other things that we're doing outside of the workday that become maybe the more, okay, how am I going to manage my transportation on that as an active traveler. Knowing their plan A, plan B, plan C for getting around. And then when I'm requesting, I am asking somebody who on some kind of a routine basis to get a ride -- all of us ask for favors at some point. On a routine basis, what can I do? What skill can I swap? Or you pay for being able to get a ride with someone. Because there's an expense factor in that. Another activity I do with students, I call it it's in the bag. I literally put an empty bag on the table. And I have, down below, the multiple items that I figured out. If I'm heading out on a Saturday, a range of errands, meeting somebody for lunch, picking up groceries at the end of it, what are the things I want to put in my bag? And it really gets into the critical thinking of drivers, what do you carry, either in the backseat, the console, or down on the floor. All those things that we keep around us as we're out and about. And it's a good exercise for students to do. Those active traveler skills. We call it the active passenger challenge in our workshop where the students get called out for -- they get in the car and they get on their phone screen. No. With active passenger, your head is up and you are telling the driver where to go. We've had so many parents say in the workshop, okay, we get in the car. How do we get to your grandmother's our church or, you know, another -- the mall. And students: I don't know. They are the ones who are directing the driver. Setting up the time for practicing travel safely. And just as I think a parent or a family member will coach a potential driver on driving, walking with them and kind of checking out those pedestrian skills. Or the parent arranges for an Uber or a taxi, and do that. Ride the bus, even a Greyhound so the first, second, or third time it might be a little bit scary, a little bit different for the student but then it becomes more natural. I've done this before. Working out that exchange rate. Remember, not favors for rides. Being able to estimate how long it takes to get somewhere. Drivers know that for their particular locations. If I'm biking to a friend's house, I need to be able to tell them. If I'm going to call a Lyft, I need to have a sense of how long is it going to take for the Lyft to get to me and then get to the location. Kind of working up to that first solo trip. Just like anybody who prepares a nice meal, you do that in stages of learning. You're building up to it. And then with the parents, I want to talk about if there's another child in the house, a driver, who is getting support, you're either helping pay for gas or helping with a car payment, what does that active traveler, what's the balance for that different form of transportation. What are they getting? Here I've listed several, a skill set for being an active traveler. We've all gotten more experienced with reading, whether it's Google Maps, whatever form you use. But also reading a paper map to get an overview of the whole larger view. I work with students a lot on using those optical devices because that telescope is very helpful in pulling travel information. Getting information on the phone, being able to ask your questions accurately. Again, those social skills for when you're out and about. I want to mention Finding Wheels. This is the second edition and the chapters are divided up, those specific options for transportation that, depending on what your student may use, it's very, very student/family-friendly. Lots of activities. I want to move into the data a little bit that we found out, and this is the personal characteristics. I said we've had over 160 participate. And it's that group of students -- and I think any of the VI professionals know this is a niche within a niche of students. It's to be of driving age. So 15. And that best level of vision. To meet your state's visual criteria. So these are the ones they are least likely to identify as visually impaired. They're most likely to be on consult or reduced service, because they may not use a cane. They are print readers. The needs are not as obvious for this group. And what we have found in our workshop, they are the least likely to want to come to this campus for a program. It's kind of helping that group claim some of the that self-identity as someone with low vision. And the big question in the room -- we get it from both parents and the students. What will it take to get a license? Although not all of the students will be required to use a bioptic by the medical guidelines of the state, we want them to know about what it is. I've got a picture of Chuck doing an activity with the students out in the parking lot where they're on foot and experiencing what it's like to wear that bioptic. So we wanted to look at the personal characteristics of those who come to our workshop, see if we could find any factors of predictability for what gives us a sense of this group, these characteristics are more likely to become drivers. And then considering the impact of the driver's seat workshop itself. I did two sets of interviews. So from 2012 to 2016 was cohort 1. The first five years. And I reached 54 of the families who had participated. The second cohort was from years 2017 to '22, excluding that COVID year. And I was able to reach 57. So that's 111 who completed the phone interview with me, that talked about are you driving. In your decision to drive or not, where are you in the process if you're pursuing it. So we had a 75% response rate, which is almost unheard of in data collection. And what I kept getting on the phone: Attendees want to talk about this. This whole topic of I have low vision and this idea of becoming a driver. Because there are a lot of either you get challenged on it or it is a challenge to get the process completed. They wanted to talk about it. Generally, we found that more males were referred and came to the workshop. And then although we preference juniors and seniors, it was interesting that the two cohorts differed. We had much more balance in the second cohort the more recent five years, balance of each of the grades in high school. We had 20 eye conditions represented in each of the cohorts. And albinism was always the primary group but in the first cohort no other single condition came close. We had a lot of conditions where there might be just one or two. In the second cohort -- and this is one of those I couldn't explain why -- but ROP and albinism across that five-year group, those were very, very closely matched. We wanted to look at the amount of service that the participants in the study received. A few years of service from an O&M, say maybe just two or three, or throughout their schooling. And what the graph shows is that it is not a significant statistic but with more service it seems to suggest that a student would become a driver. And those three bars, it's the drivers in blue, the green is they are getting their permit or pursuing getting the bioptic, getting their hours completed. And then those who are not driving. And then we wanted to also look at the TVI years. I'm going to say a little more about -- I think just a student getting service throughout their schooling, connection to a TVI or a COMS, they are getting more support. They're better connected to resources. They are more involved in the tools and the equipment. And I think that that leads to, supports that possibility of becoming a driver. The bioptic, the 4X was the most common power, that highest possible level for giving you that biggest bump of adding to your vision. And the cohort 1 was more likely to be using a bioptic. We just wanted to look at across this ten-year span what are we seeing that's different. And there definitely are more uses for the bioptic than just driving. And one of the things that we are able to talk about in the workshop is how to get that bioptic, because there is a significant cost factor on it. But TWC, if the student connects with their TWC counselor, there can be support for that. I think all of us in the VI professionals know there is a lot more that comes into this, what impacts that decision. The family attitude, because the parents who come in the room are across the gamut. They can be absolutely, no, I think this is going to be fine. Or those that literally say to us you guys are crazy. I have no idea how this is legal. So I think the attitude that the student comes out of the home. And sometimes it very much pushes against what that parent says or may think. Awareness for the demands of driving and the mindset. It's attention. It's response time. There are multiple factors that come in with that. Problem solving through barriers like getting your bioptic. And then the financial support. All of these were what came up in the phone conversations with the families and the students. So we also looked at the reasons for not driving and in the first cohort not ready and still too nervous. Remember, these are -- they had just come out of the program. They were between the age of 17 and 22. So still rather young. And then others for cohort 1, it was a not interested. I have other systems in place. It was the students who gave me the line, I'm waiting for the Google Car. There's other ways of getting around and we wanted to have an understanding of what were those reasons. The impact of -- we get really, really positive feedback from the workshop. 97% give it a very positive or somewhat positive rating. And then 100%, every person interviewed said, yes, I would recommend this. And I would love to visit with more professionals about we are able to take this workshop on the road. Actually for Region 3, 4, 5, and 6 we're doing this in Houston on February 4. A little promotion there. Number of stories that come up. This young woman who talked about I wanted to show that I could take on this type of independence. A mother talked about she was very concerned with her son doing this driving. He had been resistant to wearing his bioptic and then with just a little bit of experience he pointed out it is crucial for me to be able to use it. The students saying I met people like me. And that bonding that happened in both the students and the parents was -- it is the warmest part that comes out of this workshop. Parents commenting how the next weeks after the workshop, he was different. He seemed more engaged, more empowered. Taking charge of life. Some of the parents commented on this is a tough decision. I'm very, very nervous for my child. And so Chuck commented on the CDRS, certified driving rehab specialist. We want parents to know about the resources they can connect to for helping build their child's confidence in doing this task well. We also heard from families that they could get stuck at DPS/DMV. They didn't talk to us. They didn't believe it was possible and we want to give them the language for getting past the front desk, ask the supervisor. We found several benefits beyond driving. Again, this was the group least likely to identify. Did not have awareness of things like transition planning, had not been connected to services. Learning about the low vision exam. Getting connected to their TWC counselor. Finding tools and tips to use in the driving process. So those are kind of facts that came out as well. We do have the E-course that is available on our TSBVI website -- and I'm going to give contact information on that. We've been doing lots more social media posting. The bioptic driving page will soon be back up on our newly-reconstructed website. And then we do this Driver's Seat workshop in the state. Here's information on getting that, whether teaching the telescope or bioptic driving. And some of our happy drivers. Chuck, this is back to you. 

>>Chuck: Thank you, Cindy. The slide here will provide those who are really showing an interest or who think may directly or indirectly become involved in promoting, let's say bioptic driving. So this will provide you a contact list of various professionals, whether they're involved in research, whether they're involved in program development, whether they're clinicians with expertise in evaluating, prescribing, and dispensing bioptic lens systems, et cetera. This would provide you their name and their up to date e-mail address. Next slide. So in conclusion, bioptic lens systems are now accepted for use as far as driving, by about 96% of licensing jurisdictions across the United States. A word to the wise: Pedestrian safety skills and active, what we call passenger in car skills. In other words, placing that young novice passenger in particular in the front right seat are a plus before applying and entering a formalized program of bioptic driver training. Being pre-driver ready in many instances reduces not only the cost but the length and the extent of formalized bioptic driver training in order to obtain the license. And, lastly, remember, parents and professionals, it's okay if your student or client decides not to explore driving at a particular point in their lives. Next slide. And at this point, unless Cindy has other comments, we'll open it up for questions. 

>>Cindy: We've got just a few minutes. We'll take a couple. It was a lot of information that we threw out quickly. So very happy to share more information. 

>>Kaycee: Thank you so much, Cindy and Chuck. That was great information. 

>>Chuck: Something that I would like to share with members of our audience, especially if there were individuals from the mobility profession. If you were unable to attend and participate in the SWOMA conference held in Round Rock, Texas, a copy of the presentations and presenter notes are available by contacting me. Those that are related to not only the in the driver's seat workshop but also the role of O&M specialists in preparing novice candidates for driving. So if you would like either copy of those, just contact me at my home e-mail address. 

>>Cindy: And I'll add our e-courses, the four modules within that E-course we do an overview that's maybe 15 minutes -- it's on the Bridge platform. We directed a module to families themselves, then to agencies such as DPS. And then we have one for CEUs that is for professionals, VI professionals. I believe that one takes maybe 40 minutes. And because using a telescope is a good preparation for getting ready for bioptic, we just released the teaching telescope. That one takes an hour. But there are CEUs and we are happy to have anybody sign up for those.