TRANSCRIPT - Tactile Language Development in Students who are Congenitally Deafblind Ð 8/29/22

>>Kaycee: I am so happy to be with you today. I am Kaycee Bennett. I am an education consultant on the Texas Deafblind Project, which is at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired, part of the Deafblind outreach team. We're going to be talking about Tactile Language Development in Students who are Congenitally Deafblind today. My e-mail address is on the screen. It's also in your handout if you need to chat with me after ward for anything. I am super excited to talk to you about this book. It's called if you can see it, you can support it. A book on tactile language from the Nordic Welfare Center. It is a free book. You can use the QR code that is on the screen right now or the direct link to it is in your handout and it is also in the chat. Kate just shared it in the chat. You can follow that link and direct download this in a PDF format. So you can get that immediately, PDF of this book. If you can see it, you can support it. A book on tactile language. You can also order the book from them on that same page. And the book is free. They just ask that you cover shipping costs, which is rather insane because it's coming from Sweden and it shows up in a matter of a couple of days. I don't know how they do that but that's what I did to get this book is order it straight from their website for free. And it came super quickly. And then the PDF, again, you can download directly. I will show this again at the end so if anybody comes in late, they can grab that book. I'm really, really excited for you all to get a sneak peek of it today but also to read this book in its entirety. It's a very easy read and to support that we are going to have a free book study. So the dates are on the screen, also in your handout, and there are links to where you can register for those sessions. The very first one is going to be September 29, a month from right now. And we're just going to cover chapter 1 that day, which is seven pages. It is not a ton to read between now and then. You can order the book, read the book, the first chapter, and join us that day. We're going to talk through this book. Our team did not write it. It is out of the Nordic Welfare Center in the Nordic countries. They had a large team of authors for this book. My personal opinion is that it is the most practice-changing piece of literature that I have ever read. I am quite obsessed with this book, which is why I'm doing this Coffee Hour today. This is my copy. It looks like it has been run over because I have used it so much and I only have known about it for less than a year. So can't recommend it enough. And it's free. So definitely do that. Register -- you can register with the QR code that's on the right of the screen right now. It's also in a link that is in the chat and in your handout. Natasha asked if the PDF version is screen reader and Braille accessible. I believe it is. Kate said she believes it is as well. If not, let us know, Natasha, my e-mail is on the handout. Okay. Hopefully you've captured that QR code to register for the September session. I will pop this up at the end again so that anyone can grab that that missed it. So today's Coffee Hour is going to be a series of quotes from this book. Every quote that we're going to look at today I pulled from this book. This book is quite yellow. I have highlighted it to death in here. There's so much great content. But I pulled a few of my favorites out to talk about today and so this whole session that we're going to have today is going to be a discussion. We have a lot of people on the call. We have 112 at this moment so we obviously cannot have everybody, you know, in meeting mode with cameras and microphones on so we are in a webinar format. We will use the chat but please, please, please be active in the chat. Let me know what you think about these quotes. Let's have a discussion throughout today. I will read them aloud so that we can move forward. The picture that is on the screen is the cover of the book. It is a woman who is laughing and then -- there's two women that are laughing. One leaning over and one sitting up. One of them is congenitally Deafblind. All right. Here's the first quote. Most of them are not very long. This one is a little bit longer. I'm going to apologize in advance for all of the names that I'm going to butcher throughout this entire presentation. They are all from the Nordic countries. One of the reasons, before I read this quote, one of the reasons that we felt like a book study would be really helpful and that it was helpful for us when our team read it initially, we did an internal book study with this book with just a few of us that read it. It was really, really helpful because the information, it's in English, the book is in English but it's not necessarily in American English. And so there's some thing that are worded that are a little bit different than how we would typically talk about language development. So you'll see that, especially in this first one, which is another reason to get together and talk through it together and talk about how it applies to our students. So I'm going to read this first quote. Please type in the chat your thoughts, your initial feelings about it, what you think about it and then so that we're not just sitting in awkward silence while everyone is typing, I will read it a second time and then I'll read the chat. Okay. So here we go. Here's the first quote. Persons with congenital Deafblindness have limited access to conventional sign language as a first language unless they have sufficient functional residual vision. This creates problems with access, accessing visual sign language may prove difficult. When looking at the expressions made by the person with congenital Deafblindness themselves, we can see that the expressions most often are not based on the visual sign language, rather than the linguistic expressions arise from what they are sensing through the bodily and tactile modality. And that was bygone Andreas Gregor Caspian Forsgren on page 84 is where you can find that one. Initial thoughts, how you feel about it, what you think about it. If you have seen that to be true with your students. Anything you want to share in the chat. Persons with congenital Deafblindness have limited access to conventional sign language as a first language unless they have sufficient functional residual vision. This creates problems with access, accessing visual sign language may prove difficult. When looking at the expressions made by the person with congenital Deafblindness themselves, we can see that the expressions most often are not based on the visual sign language, rather the linguistic expressions arise from what they are sensing through the bodily and tactile modality. Totally agree. Sign language is very visual. Wendy agrees as well. Yeah, when I read this -- let me read this first. When I think of sign language, I think of visual representations like highly iconic signs. It's a different perspective to think of sign as not being based on visuals only. Totally, Brenna. Unless you're using tactile sign language, that is very true. Yes, like haptic and protactile. Reminds me of tone and inflection. My son looks for something to touch in reference to the sign so he understands what we're talking about. Absolutely, Charity. What you say doesn't really matter as much as how we say it. Totally. The person is trying to connect images/signs which can be misinterpreted due to a lack of full access. Also very true, Cheryl. When I read this quote, it made me think of a former student that I had who was -- he was completely Deafblind and he would sign this, a flat hand under the chin, for when he wanted more food. And we kept trying to figure out why he was doing that. People sometimes would think, because that's the sign for pig in American Sign Language. Is there a pig toy he's wanting? Is he thinking about, you know, a petting zoo? What is this? It took a little bit of time for us to realize that it had nothing to do with the visual sign language of pig, it had everything to do with the feeling, the sensation he got in his throat when he swallowed. And to him, that was through his body, through his bodily tactile feeling of swallowing that he came up with that linguistic expression. That, to him, meant I want more food. I want to have that feeling again where I swallow. And that is not based on signing more food, please. I want to eat, please. Those things are not -- how he thinks, how he feels. He feels through his body and so he came up with those linguistic expressions. A few more in the chat. I think this underscores the importance of being attuned to bodily emotional traces in concert with a more formal tactile communication mode individualized to the individual who is Deafblind. This book does talk about bodily emotional choices in here and kind of this correlation as well. Jessica said this makes me wonder about the place of protactile knowing this book is from an outside of the U.S. context. Definitely. Kate said I think our students who are congenitally Deafblind who may need a language very specific to them, not necessarily a standardized language. Absolutely, Kate and that is essentially what this book is about. So, so true. And Jessica bringing up protactile is really great. And it's looking at that, right? That's one of the points of protactile is to have it be based on what an experience feels like, not necessarily just tactile sign. Not necessarily taking visual representation and put them into the hands of someone who is Deafblind but making it represent the actual experience for that person. Which for someone who is congenitally Deafblind likely isn't going to be standardized. Absolutely. Okay. Let's look at the next one. This quote says, first we have to believe that they can and will tell their stories, and then try to understand how and what they sense. The language of this person and how it expresses her thoughts. Kari Schjoll Brede said this on page 33. Again, sorry, Kari for the name butchered. One more time. First we have to believe that they can and will tell their stories and then try to understand how and what they sense. The language of this person and how it expresses her thoughts. Oh, good, Haley's here. Yes, protactile is an important groundbreaking study going on now and its modality is completely tactile. Yes, absolutely. It makes sense that language starts with personal experiences not necessarily what pre-K curriculum starts with. Absolutely. Yes to this quote! How can we help our students tell their stories? Every student has that right and it's up to us to be the creative thinkers to understand what they are already telling us. Absolutely. This one made me think about presuming competence. They have a story to tell. They're trying to tell us. We just have to figure out what it is. Edgenie said I love that this quote helps us focus on learning what the person will tell us, not us teach them words but be ready for them to teach us. Absolutely. Megan's here. Hi, Megan. Telling one story gives a window into that person's lived experience too. Their interests, motivators, et cetera will be different from those who use eyes and ears to sense the world. Absolutely. One more. Angela said, I love that it says we believe in them. So many people still believe non-verbal Deaf cannot share their thoughts. Not just Deaf but with any individuals who are non-verbal. My Internet is -- [ Audio breaking up ] 

>>Kate: Kaycee, you're kind of breaking in and out just a little bit. Kaycee, are you there? Hey, that's right. Because we'll just keep going on the discussion until we can get Kaycee back. But Angela, I agree. So, I mean, this pertains to all of our students, right? Today we are talking about our students who are Deafblind but this absolutely pertains to any of our non-verbal students, how do we help them share their thoughts? Kaycee, are you back? 

>>Kaycee: Can you hear me now? 

>>Kate: Yes. 

>>Kaycee: I'm going to leave my camera off. I had a thing that popped up saying your Internet is unstable, which is always what you want when you're presenting. Hopefully it's better now. Okay. This next one is -- so true, Kathi. It's been a day. The next one is talking about when is it language? The quote is, nothing is a linguistic sign unless it is interpreted as one. And this is from Nedelina talking about Charles Pierce's sign on page 34. What I really love about this is that whole chapter -- Nedelina is talking about when is it language and she is a linguist, which I think is really, really neat that the authors brought her in as an author to talk from a linguist point of view about tactile language and tactile language in congenitally Deafblind individuals, in particular. So nothing is a linguistic sign unless it is interpreted as one. I would love to hear your thoughts. It takes a very in-tune responsive communication partner -- hold on. Sorry. To recognize subtle forms of communication. That is so true, Alyssa. So true. Kathi said I love this and think it applies to all communication. Honoring attempts at communication reinforce the signal as meaningful and hopefully it encourages the child to do it again. Absolutely. I thought it was really powerful that a linguist is saying it's language. It's a linguistic sign. If the people around them recognize it as that. Recognize it as communication as language, then it's language. I think it's really cool that, you know, it's not just us from the , you know, teachers of students who are Deafblind point of view that believe that but for a linguist to say that I thought was really, really neat. Any more thoughts on this one before we go to the next one? They can have their own language. Absolutely, Charity. And many of our students do. Absolutely! Margaret said I have always believed that for you to connect with any child with a disability you should enter into their world. Yes. And Cheryl says, yes, years ago I heard this as serve and return. Yeah, definitely. Our friends at the Harvard Center for the Developing Child refers to that back and forth communication as serve and return and I think it helps us all have a clear picture of what that can look like. Let's go to the next one. So in this book they talk about a study that was done in 1989 at Gallaudet University here in the states. This is a quote from that study back in 1989. It appears to us to be unrealistic to think that a person who does not know a language and who cannot receive it in the form presented could learn much from someone trying to communicate in that language. And that was Johnson, Liddell, and Erting on page 43. One more time. It appears to us to be unrealistic to think that a person who does not know a language and who cannot receive it in the form presented could learn much from someone trying to communicate in that language. Debbie said reminds me of when I was working with a child with autism who was Deafblind and his way of communicating was to dance and rock. When we did the same thing he was doing he would stop, look at us and smile and then continue. Otherwise, he didn't acknowledge us at all. He was waiting for you to speak his language. Jessica said everyone is communicating all the time. It's up to each person in an exchange to tune in and interpret what anyone is saying, whether it's in speech, gesture, et cetera. Beautiful. This is interesting because it seems to somewhat conflict with the theory of presumed competence. That's interesting you say that, Alyssa. Kate said I disagree. It's up to us to become competent in their language. I think the difference, Alyssa, is it's all about access. I just made that spin. So sorry. Yes. I wish more doctors and therapists had this view. Very true, Charity. Yes. So when I first read this quote, my first thought was, duh, if you do not know a language or cannot receive it in the form it's presented, of course you can't learn much from someone who is using that language. However, when you stop and think about it, it's fairly common that we are expecting students who don't have access to the language happening in the classroom around them to pick up that language and to pick up the content, right? We see that. I think the key is cannot receive, which has nothing to do with competence, rather is about access to what is being communicated. Absolutely. Not that they can't learn it, by any means, of course they can. But if they are without any access to audition and they're in an oral classroom, they are no visual access or both and they're in a classroom that's using visual sign language and nobody's bringing that to them in a tactile form, we probably shouldn't assume that they're just going to absorb this language that's happening around and that they do not have access to. Kate said and it's not just a foreign language. This would be like someone trying to tell me things in Morse Code. I don't even have access to that. Yeah. Hillary said I'm not sure of the context of this quote but I wonder if it reflects the U.S. mindset as opposed to the Nordic mindset toward access to unique types of communication. Jessica said a hearing person talking to a Deaf person in spoken English who doesn't have access to that speech isn't going to get much across. Haley said think about natural languages that are reciprocal. Alyssa agreed that Morse Code is a great example. It's all about access, isn't it? Everybody needs and deserves access. It's kind of crazy that the study was in 1989 and we're still seeing these issues happen. We've got work to do. All right. The next one. It is through the tactile sense that the child with congenital Deafblindness can most easily, quote, unlock his or her curriculum, end quote. And this poor person's name I have to butcher terribly. Arfinn Maruvik Vonen said this on page 46. And Kate joked that we have folks here not even alive in 1989. That's a possibility. Haley said I like this one. I like it too, Haley. It is through the tactile sense that the child with congenital Deafblindness can most easily, quote, unlock his or her curriculum, end quote. Michelle said unlock is such a perfect term for this. I liked it too. I feel like it gives just a nice image of what we're doing here. Jessica said I do too. The tactile sense is powerful and a natural way for Deafblind children to learn. Danica said absolutely. It's the most reliable, even if they have residual vision or hearing. Yes, it often is the most reliable. Tracy said I like that this quote points out that each child has a curriculum specific to them. I liked that too, Tracy. That was something that really stood out to me. Not the curriculum, his or her curriculum. We need to think about Deafblind kids as self-agents and tactile modality. If we make space for that, it unlocks the inner self agency. Beautifully said, Haley. That could be a quote on here. So true. I'll give you just another second to see if anybody has final thoughts on this before I go to the next one. Kate said, yes, think about the lives of these kiddos. How many decisions are made for them and how much are they acted upon versus getting the opportunity to act for themselves. Way too often. Way too often, for sure. Alyssa said I would think this would encompass hand under hand that I know is recommended over hand over hand. Not just for dual sensory kiddos but for all kiddos. Yes, Alyssa. Yes, yes, yes. Angela said I worked a Deafblind infant who didn't like shoes. Her mother said it was because with shoes she couldn't feel things in the bed. I thought it was great that she recognized her daughter needed to be able to explore with more than just her hands. Yes. Absolutely, Angela. We have lots of kids that get lots of information through their feet. Haley said, bingo. I am usually barefoot, LOL. I love that. Jessica said that makes so much sense. I have heard shoes referred to as oven mitts for our feet. I love that, Jessica. That's so great. It's one of those things that we go out and see how do we make these kids wear their shoes? And we say, you don't! They're getting great information from their feet. Lori said she likes the vibration for feeling the music. Haley said for those who do not know, I am Deafblind. So glad Haley is here to share her personal experiences. All right. I'm going to jump to the next one. This says, "Today there's also research that shows that the brain has the ability to reorganize and develop areas. This means that the tactile area in the brain takes over when vision and hearing do not work fully. It is therefore legitimate to assume that people with congenital Deafblindness have a greater ability to perceive and interpret information from the tactile sense than sighted and/or hearing persons have.." Caroline Lindstrom said this one on page 54. I'm going to read it one more time. I love this. I love the science part of this. Today there is also research that shows that the brain has the ability to reorganize and develop areas. This means that the tactile area in the brain takes over when vision and hearing do not work fully. It is therefore legitimate to assume that people with congenital Deafblindness have a greater ability to perceive and interpret information from the tactile sense than sighted/hearing persons have. While you're typing, I'm going to read the ones that came in. I tried hand under hand with my son and niece and they acted like they had no idea what I was doing and would move their hands on top of theirs. Thanks for being willing to share with us, Haley. Absolutely. This quote reminds me of Tara Edwards writing about rechanneling language. Alyssa said, wow, so even from a scientific perspective it's true. Hillary said this research and brain plasticity fascinates me. Me too, Hillary. James -- hi, James. James said shows the importance of repetition of skills and activity to sharpen that wiring to further develop finer skills tactilely. Kids will withdraw their hand when it is a new concept to them. Absolutely. We want them to have that agency to be able to remove their hands when they're uncomfortable. We never want them to feel like we are controlling them. I loved this brain science that Caroline is talking about here. You know, as a project, we often talk about the tactile strength that our students have. Kathi said, Kaycee, do you think there's a fine line between this research and the sensationalizing of superpowers? I think yes, kind of, as in people who are blind can hear and smell so well. Yeah, I think the blanket statements like that are not always great but I do think recognizing that our students who are Deafblind have a strength in their tactile ability that they often are able -- not often -- well, I guess often. But most often are way, way stronger in their tactile skills than we are as hearing, sighted, hearing and/or sighted individuals. And so I think wording is important in every case, Kathi, and I think it's important to have that perspective that it's not people who are blind can hear and smell so well, but this individual student has the strength. And we know that that's possible and we know that it's likely that their brain has even expanded in these areas to allow them to have even finer detection of their tactile skills . I agree. The ability to compensate and develop those other senses is totally valid but I like hearing the why as opposed to just the judgment that it is. This is cool. Jessica said I wonder this myself, Kathi. I know at Gallaudet they have done a lot of studies of Deaf sighted people's vision being different than of hearing sighted people. It's tricky not to fall into the stereotype. James said I think it develops over time and not instantly, especially for blinded . This book is written with congenitally Deafblind in mind but I think there are definitely pieces of it that can apply to any of the students that we're working with and any other individuals that are Deafblind can definitely jump in. Haley said and I can vouch for this quote. When I work blindfolded and train others in that way, a new world opens up in its tactile sense. That's awesome. Thanks for sharing, Haley. I'm glad you're here. This one is kind of fun. For those of you that are hearing and sighted, we're going to take just a few seconds to show you something really quickly. I want you to write in the chat what sounds you are hearing this man produce. And it will take just a moment. Just put in the chat as it's going what sound you're hearing this man produce. 

>>Video: Ba, ba, ba. Ba, ba, ba. Ba, ba, ba. Ba, ba, ba. 

>>Kaycee: Okay. And then we're going to have another sound. put in the chat what you hear. [ Video ] 

>>Video: Fa, fa, fa, fa. 

>>Kaycee: All right. So most people in the first one said with a B, letter B, ba, ba, ba. In the second one we had some fa, some va with a V. A couple of you picked up on it. The sound is actually the same. The sound is actually the same in both of these clips. Yes. So Michelle knew because she was only listening and not looking. This is called the McGurk Effect and it's a study that shows that our brain, we hear with the whole picture, not just our ears. Our eyes support what we're hearing and can even alter it. So that's what just happened, for those of you who said fa or va for that second sound, your eyes picked up that his mouth was in the placement for those and your brain changed what you were hearing. Debbie, it's an illusion. They have the same sound playing and he's just mouthing along. So Debbie said I don't see how it's possible. It's a voice over. If you make it with your lips in that position. It's a voiceover. It's an illusion. The point of the study is to say, yes, that the speech reading we are doing with our eyes can alter the information that our ears are getting. So there's a whole chapter in this book called we hear with our brain. And in case you don't know me personally, Kaycee, my background is in Deaf Education and all of this, that whole we hear with our brains chapter, is so fascinating to me. That's interesting. Brenna said there was a split second I closed my eyes and listened and that was it was ba, ba but then I opened my eyes again and my brain was back to telling me I was hearing fa, fa. Yeah, it's super crazy! Our brains are so amazing that they can alter the information that's coming in. So looking at the whole picture, understanding speech is a process between the eyes, the ears, and the brain. We use vision to support and even alter the information that's coming in auditorily. This right here is why even mild impairment in hearing and vision compound to create such a significant need. Isn't this amazing? Brains are amazing. This quote, it may be my favorite in the book because of my background and my passions. But I'm going to read it. It says if we as hearing care professionals only focus our rehabilitation efforts on the ear, then we ignore a significant part of the challenge. We forget that the brain needs the best possible signals from both the ears and the eyes and in many cases also the tactile sense. This is from an audiologist, doctor of audiology named Rolf Mjones, page 52. He says this. I say he. I don't know if it's a man or a woman. If we as hearing care professionals only focus our rehabilitation efforts on the ear, then we ignore a significant part of the challenge. We forget that the brain needs the best possible signal from both the ears and the eyes and in many cases also the tactile sense. Haley said, exactly. We should be shifting to what we can focus on. Tactility has endless possibilities. Hillary said I think this is a reminder for us to consider the whole individual, not just part. Brenna said very powerful quote. Always refreshing to see an audiologist recognize the needs of things besides the ear. Yes, Brenna! I think that's one of the reasons I loved it so much. We often see that. We talk often about how we work in silos. You know, we have our audiologist, teacher of the Deaf over here. We have our teacher of the visually impaired on the other side. We work separately. We do our own things. Often they are contradictory to each other and everybody forgets the tactile sense. I love that this is an audiologist that's saying we have to look at the whole picture. We have to. I love that. Let me jump into the chat here. Stephanie said I read a quote by Maria Montessori that said what the hand touches, the mind remembers. It's great for tactile instruction. Charity said we need more professionals that think this way. I agree, Charity. That's why we're going to have this book study. We want as many people to read this as possible so we can talk about it and get it into practice. Pam said I thought I heard ba but then looked at his face and saw the F formation on his lips. I do have a hearing impairment. I use that visual component to make sure I see what I'm hearing to help me with clarification. Rebecca said this is why I often get frustrated when others think I only work with the ears or sign. And they don't understand the importance of Deaf and hard of hearing services beyond sign language and hearing aids. So true, Rebecca. We have to team. We have to team. Lots and lots of collaboration. Okay. I have this slide up on the screen again. This is the QR code for the Nordic Welfare Center's page on the book. If you can see it, you can support it. A book on tactile language. Again, you can download it free as a PDF. You can also order it and they'll send you one in the mail. That QR code is on the screen. Hillary said Dr. Lilli Nielsen wrote a book called the comprehending hand, which goes along with this discussion. Cheryl said I still have not figured out the phone number. Cheryl, is there a dropdown that you can choose the United States? Because I think it defaults to a different country's phone number system. And Kate has dropped the link, if you would like to do it on your computer instead, into the chat. Let me turn my camera back on and hopefully the Internet will be stable. Okay. And then I'm going to go to the next slide here. On this slide I have the dates for the upcoming book study. They are all from 3:30 to 4:30 central time. The first one will be September 29th and we will just review chapter 1. Six pages. Very quick read. That will be September 29th. The QR code on the screen and the link that Kate just dropped in the chat is to register for that September 29th session. The other dates are October 27th, November 17th, December 15th, January 26th, February 16th, March 30th, April 27th, and May 18th. So we will wrap up this book study before school ends. Carrie, it's not exactly one chapter per meeting but we will give out, at that first one, if you will just read chapter 1 before the first one, we will give a full agenda and plan and everything for the ones following. That's a really great question. Laura asked if you need to commit to all of them? I hope you'll commit to all of them. They're only going to be one hour long and the reading is -- it's a very easy read, very quick read. It's a very short book so we hope that you'll come to all of them. But you can register for them separately so if you have one session you're going to miss, not a big deal. Don't skip it because of that. You can catch up with us after that. Everybody get that? Oh, I'm unstable again. Can you hear me? 

>>Kate: Yeah, we can hear you. 

>>Kaycee: I got the Internet unstable pop up. Okay. So hopefully everybody has that information. My e-mail address is back up along with our project e-mail address. Txdeafblindtexas Deafblind Project@tsbvi.edu. That will go to my team. You can send that to that e-mail address or my e-mail address is Bennettk@tsbvi.edu. Happy to answer any questions. I'm going to turn it over to Kate to talk about our study groups in general. 

>>Kate: Thank you so much for such a great discussion! Oh my gosh, this is one of the most rich chats I think we've had in a long time. It is great. Thank you all for participating and answering questions. Some good experiences and some good ideas. Really quickly, before we give you the code and close out, I'm going to hold you hostage for a few minutes. But I just wanted to explain a little bit. Some of you may be familiar with our study groups. These have been long standing around the topics of active learning and CVI, especially. Last year -- well, we talk every semester about Coffee Hour. How is it going? What are the topics we need? What do we need to change? And last year we really had the discussion about wanting to make sure that we are providing sound professional development, you know, that we are not just doing a weekly thing to do a weekly thing but we are having the opportunity to go deeper into some of these topics that are going to take more than 50 minutes to talk about, like active learning and CVI or Deafblind strategies, right? And so we're going to have a few topics this year that we will introduce with a Coffee Hour session and then we'll have the opportunity to go deeper in some subsequent study groups and book studies, for example. We're not trying to overwhelm anybody but we just know that sometimes there's a topic you want to spend more time on. Not all of them will be a full year, some of them, in fact, we won't even start until the end of December. But we do want to take that time. We are starting out here with this book study with Kaycee. We will be introducing active learning very soon as well as CVI we'll be introducing very soon as well. And then towards, like I said, the end of the calendar year -- so in December we're going to be starting a mental health study group as well. Just so you know that's something that's happening with Coffee Hour as an introduction and then we will be doing a study group. These aren't necessarily a come and listen to us lecture, this is really come and let's discuss things. Do you have a specific student? Do you have a specific question? I think this is going to be great and I love that we're kicking it off with this book. Like Kaycee said, is practice changing. It is so good. So, again, Kaycee, thank you so much for presenting this. I love that you did it in the quotes. It kind of gives us a little teaser of whatÕs to come.