TRANSCRIPT - Pre-Driver Readiness is Pedestrian Readiness

>>Donna: Alright, welcome everyone. Grab your tea, coffee. Or beverage and get ready for TSBBI outreach tech T time we will give everyone a minute or 2 to get in and get settled and then we will start. There are links to the handouts for today in the chat. If you'd like to pull those off. It is now 3 o'clock. My name is Donna Clemens and welcome to TSBBI Outreach. Technology T time. Our goal for T time is building our community of practice for technology and supporting each other for teaching technology in the spirit of that goal. We want this to be interactive. So if you would please. Filter your questions to the panelists and in the Q&A and interact with each other through the chat. Not to say we are going to ignore the chat. We will see that and funnel those as well. It's just a little easier through the QA. Today's topic is pre driver readiness is per pedestrian readiness with Cindy back over, Alicia Davison, Shauna Blankenship, and Alexa Pain. Pointer. I say it wrong every time, Alexa. I'm sorry. So I am going to hand these session over to them.

>>Alexa: Okay. Okay, so welcome everybody. We are really excited to be here to talk with you today about pre-driver readiness is pedestrian readiness. Our hope is that you will be able to see how many of the things that you're already teaching are. Relevant and impactful for our learners that could possibly benefit from biopic. Tools and the possibility of driving in the future. So let's get started. I'm Alexa pointer, I'm VI and O and M consultant for region 10 education service center. Alicia, do you want to introduce yourself?

>>Shanna: Sorry, I think she was muted. That.

>>Alexa: Oh, okay.

>>Shanna: Okay.

>>Alecia: I'm Alicia Davidson. I'm the regional VI specialist at ASC Region 11.

>>Shanna: I'm Shannon Blankenship. I'm the Texas Century Support Network Project Manager for the visually impaired side and I'm a orientation mobility specialist in a TBI.

>>Cindy: And I'm Cindy Bachover. I'm the TSBVI, Low Vision Consultant. And one of my roles is coordinating the in the driver seat introduction to safe driving with low vision. That we've been doing since 2,012. On campus and we also have on the road versions of that. So that's . Then Increasing my knowledge base on biopic driving for over a decade.

>>Alexa: Oh, Okay, so today we are gonna be, doing 3 main things. One is we hope that you, are able to take a big picture back. As a calm, focusing on pedestrian skills is focusing on pre-driver readiness. Family and cons collaboration is a must in pre driver met readiness. It's really important that we work with our families. And engage them in some of the basic skills that we are addressing. And recognizing and the progression of skills that certified orientation and mobility specialists. Are already doing to prepare a student for pre-driver readiness. After today's training, you should be able to do these 3 things. Identify areas that you as a comms are already doing to prepare students for pre driver readiness. Number 2, identify 3 examples of how to empower families to support their children in this goal. And 3, identify ways to use. The pre driver readiness checklist to assist in skilled development.

>>Cindy: And I'm gonna really quickly go over kind of the those questions that come up first.st So who qualifies and this is for the state of Texas. To drive when you have low vision. So once you hit that 2050 mark, you're becoming a driver. Those who have 2050 to 2,200 vision may qualify to drive. 2050 or better than 20 over 70. You are not required to use a biopic. Some of our, attendees in the workshop who have gone through still decide that they want to use the work use the biopic but once you're at that acuity level of 2070 to 2,200. Our medical guidelines. Through Texas DPS require a biopic. And the second measure that's not measured in the, when you go in to get your driver's license. Is visual field. And a hundred 40 degrees uninterrupted. Meaning no scatoma spots in the visual field. Is what the medical guidelines say. And it's the appointment with the low vision specialist that is going to confirm. That a student, a teenager, a young adult. Would qualify for driving. A lot of optometrists may not be familiar with biopic driving so finding that low vision Specialist is important. And it's a frequent question that's asked. So if a person has functional vision and only one eye, can they do they qualified to drive? And yes they can as long as they meet that acuity range. And that functioning eye has most of the visual field because you can cross midline with one eye so you're still able to scan on both sides. And the other factor that comes in is if there's a progressive condition such as RP. That needs to be monitored regularly to make sure that the person is still meeting the acuity measures. So that's a real quick discussion of what Who would qualify for this? And the next slide is gonna show. When we talk about the biopic, there's an a picture of the biopic on the left and a very common one is a tell us a bar. That sits on top of the glasses frames and that's called the carrier lens it's carrying the biopic portion. And the person using it, you do a very slight shin dip so that your gaze moves into that telescope, grabs the information and quickly comes back out. One of the misconceptions that people have when they get very nervous about our population, how can these people drive if they're using that to telescope the full time? The telescope is like a side mirror. You are quickly glancing in it and then you're back looking ahead on the road and scanning all of that eye movement that a good driver does. So the biopic, the lowest power that they are made. In is 2.2 x 3 x or 4 X because once you go above 4 X your, that visual field gets too small to grab information. And there's definitely a skill in learning to use the biopic. We, I know as columns. That statement of using your telescope your handheld telescope can help you adjust more quickly. If the potential of using a biopic is in the students future. In the state of Texas at least. Funding may be available. Case by case basis and through your TWC counselor. For purchasing the biopic, they range. A flip up version can be right under a thousand and the one pictured can be 1,800 so they're not cheap but they do lasted well taken care of. And that getting max maximum benefit out of that tool because you're putting that much money into it. One of our attendees in the workshop. More than driving, he or in addition to using it with driving, he drove a forklift at work and said it was the best thing for him to use on the forklift that other people really admired that tool. Making more use of it than just having it in the car. Watching sports equipment, using it if you're bowling, there multiple, multiple uses. So we wanted to bring that out, bring that point up about the using the biopsy. The next slide.

>>Alexa: Okay, so here we have 2 links. The 1st one is the step by step guide to pre driver readiness. It's a training that focuses on the collaboration between the families and the comms in establishing those prerequisite skills. And then the second one is the pedestrian skills checklist that serves families and adults in knowing what skills to work on. So this is something that we've developed for this training and it breaks it down into 4 sections. So we're going to talk about each individual section on this checklist. But you could use it. For those learners that are possible by optic drive. Could you benefit from the biopics? And could possibly be driving in their future. So those are hyperlinked to this and I think they're also given to you as part of the TSPVI. Site.

>>Donna: Alexa, this is Donna. There was a question in the chat from Judy. And most of us on the, all of us on the panel are in Texas.

>>Alexa: Yeah. Okay. Hmm.

>>Donna: But some of our attendees are not. She asked if you by any chance had any visual criteria for other states like New York.

>>Alexa: What do you think, Cindy?

>>Cindy: Let me search for, a possible link. Yeah, actually if we could get Judy's email I can make sure to send that afterwards.

>>Alexa: Okay, so we're ready for the next slide, which is going to be section one, ability to receive. Retain and follow route instructions. And like I said, each one of these sections is in that, checklist that is hyperlinked and so basically the 4 sections are going to cover all those prerequisite skills that the comms and the comms in the family can work on together collaboratively to get a student ready for the use of biopics. And then there's also a section in there for the rehab, specialists that could be working with the students. Typically those are people that are occupational therapists, but they're mainly people that are certified trainers for the driving like a driving instructor so there's that column as well of things that they are traditionally used to teaching. So this very 1st one is section one ability to receive retain and follow route instructions. So we're going to go a little deeper into that. How can O and M support this area? So I want you guys to be thinking, if you are comms. Or even if you're not, if you're, maybe a teacher of students with visual impairments, how many of these skills are you currently working on with your students? And also what student what what things might be unfamiliar to you. So I'm gonna give you a minute to look through the list. And see, give us some feedback in the chat about what things you might be really comfortable with and other things that you might not know. What exactly we're talking about? Feel free to share that in the chat. I know as an O and M myself. You know, we traditionally typically do teach these skills like the mental mapping, the concept development, the How far is a block, you know, the variety of different blocks that exist? Alleys what power those different than say a driveway or a corner what are street signs, traffic signs, road markings, what are those that are organic in the neighborhoods that the student travels in or is in training on intersection shapes like a plus shaped intersection or a t-shaped intersection, maybe skewed, those kinds of things, reversing routes. Street continuity was a little bit of a new, way of explaining this to me. As an O and M, but it's the formation of how streets connect. So like I mentioned earlier, like a T intersection or a skewed intersection that is. Kind of what we're talking about with street continuity. Route shapes like ILU and Z, compass directions and directional sides of streets. So Audra put in the chat. We are also telling our families to talk about turns, roads, landmarks while they're driving anywhere with their students. So often our low vision students just sleep in a car or play on a device and have no concept of how they arrived at an That is so true. And nowadays with the phone, I think, you know, pretty much all these kids are their phone. It's not made it easier, I think, to engage students in this, in, you know, in this next generation. I think back when we didn't have the phones, it might have been easier to have those conversations, but there's a lot more distractions that keep this the students from really being paying attention to their environment. But, definitely those things are critical and good to have families do that. Absolutely. So you can see that a lot of these things as comes we're already doing. And those are the things that they're gonna need in their prerequisite skills and their foundational knowledge of environments to be successful with biopics. If they don't have it, it's going to be a lot harder for them than if they do have knowledge about this. And Mandy says, I need to do better explicitly teaching the green section. I do include it, but not purposefully for the intention of driving. So that's good that you had a little aha moment for that. But this just gives you an idea of what you're already doing. So the next thing. We're gonna give you an example. So with mental mapping, for indoors, students can describe a route to a destination inside their school. So with mental mapping, for indoors, students can describe a route to a destination inside their school and back to a destination inside their school and back and details on the route such as their school and back and details on the route such as turns, in their school and back and details on the route, in, and details on the route, such as turns, landmarks, and details on the route, such as turns, and details on the route, such as turns, landmarks, of queues. So like maybe having the student describe how they're going to get to the cafeteria and back from where they are, or to their classroom or to the gym. Those are the things that we do as O and M's and that is a critical mental mapping ability that we're building for these future skills as well. Whereas outdoors, mental mapping skills might look, in this way, like students can describe a route in a residential area to an address or community and describe the details of the route and reversal steps. So again, we've got a student out in a residential area. We're asking them to travel to the local 7 11. They're giving us that information about the route and the reversal steps. That's an example of developing those mental mapping skills and things that they will need for 1st skills with biopics. Okay. So Alicia, you've got section 2.

>>Shanna: No, there you go. One second. Sorry, we're sharing a room. You're good now. Okay. Okay, sorry. Chair.

>>Alecia: Okay, sorry, Shannon and I are. Chair, your hold on, we're gonna turn to our volume down. Okay. Okay.

>>Cindy: Okay.

>>Alecia: Okay. There you go. Bye.

>>Donna: Shanna, if you'll mute your. Sound. You switch places.

>>Shanna: We just switch places. So, in the chat, let me know if you can think of any examples of of some of this.

>>Cindy: Yeah.

>>Donna: That works. No works.

>>Shanna: Can you put my notes on the Google? Thank you. Only I can't see the chat. She's got it.

>>Alexa: Oh, I can do it for you if you want. So far we don't have anything, Alicia.

>>Shanna: Okay, so let me get Shannon to pull my note up on Word and so some of these were new terms for me and I can say as an O and MI some of these kids that are that are Going to the drivers are not ones I typically picked up on. The ones that we knew, you know, they're going to be driving. They're okay. So it wasn't until I started here at the service center, you know, so long ago as of July, so I haven't even been here a year.

>>Alexa: Hmm.

>>Shanna: And I got to sit in on. The end of the driver's seat on the go and realized, oh, some of these skill are what I taught to my low vision students. But if they were going to be drivers, I didn't typically pick them up on services. And I always did try to be best practice with my students. So it's easy for us to miss these kids and these are the kids we think they're okay they just need a little bit of help with academics. And that's not necessarily the case. So one of the areas that we look at is the I lead or the forward scanning. And that is when we are driving. We are looking and we are actively scanning and anticipating. So we're looking with the intent of seeing what may be coming at us. Is there a bite coming out between the cars? And then the head and ilateral horizontal scanning is that active scanning. The textural and gradient changes, you know, we do that and we think about that when we're teaching kids to use their canes and going up and down hills and truncated domes. But what does that feel like in a car? As a passenger in a car, a student can easily pick up, start picking up on some of that and learning how to tell when they are going up a hill when they are going down a hill or even how it feels when the car is turning. Object and form avoidance. That's going to be really big and we teach our kids how to avoid obstacles on the sidewalk but what about those that may come in front of us like the street signs the car going the car running the red light in front of us. And then static orientation, of course, we do that every day. We work with our kids on standing still and finding out where they are in space and then that dynamic orientation of as we're walking down the road, where are we in space compared to where other objects are, where the buildings are as we're moving or what about where those cars are going as we're standing at the street corner. So those are all things that we teach on a daily basis, but. Are actually driving skills as well. Okay, and so When we look at the head and eye lateral horizontal scanning ability, We look at, that the calms may teach the students. Can use available peripheral field to scan from edge of a building to edge of a building to note the possible objects, people, and animals coming into the roadway. And that's where I was saying if we have, you know, a bicyclist popping in between cars. And then parents can work on teaching when walking in a neighborhood. When walking in neighborhood, how students can avoid obstacles in the road, you know, as they cross the road and there are cars parked on the road or even when we're crossing driveways and there's cars parked and blocking the drive blocking the sidewalk. Okay. Then are you 3?

>>Cindy: I've got section 3, which is, and all 3 of these verbs when you think about detect. I identify and react in time to critical objects or conditions. Terrain if you're moving from gravel to pavement the you know, your There will be a different movement for you with that. I think he'll be interesting when everybody drives home tonight when you are thinking about. What you're visually doing those visual skills that looking straight ahead, I lead forward scan or scanning the periphery and not just curve to curb, but you're going way up into people's yards or to the building if it's close to the sidewalk just to make sure I'm dictating what is on the side. So. I think those 3 when We're talking about. I'm, aware of an object. I can now identify it because if it's like a dog that's moving into the road versus it's a trash can that's sitting in the road that's not going to move, but you need to move around it where an animal, you're going to have to respond differently. And then knowing what am I going to do to react to that. I think it's especially when you're an experienced driver. I do not drive, and I, I marveled at it. One of the things the workshop is taught me Experience drivers make Look easy. But driving is a demanding task. You are constantly looking ahead, scan, left, right, looking head skin. And I think parents. Are so uncertain about how they're child sees. Or isn't aware, aren't remembering what the you know becoming a better driver that practice that it took and helping their child. Start to identify that information such as what they're looking ahead on the road why they changed their route how they responded to a car Weaving in front of them. All of that discussion. When you think about that detect identify. And react. One of the things I remember in walking with students down the hallway in say a high school where it is A lot of movement happening in that hallway and The student needing to figure out what's my safe routing. Travel. How am I going to, you know, what do I need to move around in the hallway? And you know as columns transferring that from indoor travel to outdoor travel and We're when I'm walking with a student, I'll want to understand what they're seeing. Tell me what's up ahead, you know, when you're aware of an object because we use those 3 levels of acuity. I'm aware of something out there. I can identify it. I have a very strong idea of what it is or now I'm very certain of what it is. Because that helps me determine my safe route of travel. What I need to do as a pedestrian. And that, we know the preferred visual acuity and visual field. What gets measured in the in the doctor's office may not be what is actually functional the difference between indoors outdoors where there may be very harsh lighting. So we want the student to be aware of their functional acuity and then that preferred field area that they scan in most often. And and seeing can we improve that scanning ability. Being more aware of the full environment around them. And especially we know doing this. In a variety of settings. And then the example looking at Can the student during an O and M lesson point to and name the target object that is in front of them or a potential hazard on their path of travel and then either outdoors with, during name it and then respond with on foot travel, whether the neighborhood, the community, or especially that term we use as an active passenger in the car where they are involved in following what is the driver doing. So, it gets the family more involved and I think makes that own and M time. You know they have an additional goal then in the possibility of being a driver of how I am analyzing traffic and what how I would respond to that. Okay.

>>Alexa: And Cindy, we have a few comments in the chat. We have Judy said, I think that bicycles are not as problematic to drivers as motorcycles are. They are very often weaving in and out, especially in traffic. Melissa agrees with that and she said they're very loud and awful often straddle my student or start on my students. And then Judy says, even drivers get startled by motorcycles.

>>Cindy: Absolutely. I was walking this afternoon and had a bicyclist on the sidewalk that I thought I was going to get creamed and it was just the he was coming so fast down the sidewalk. You know, me figuring out, okay, am I gonna move to the left to be safe? So it's that you're monitoring your environment and I'm gonna put in the chat. I don't know why I didn't remember to add this to our resources. But we created some online modules that go more in depth. On drive it on driving with low vision a module is directed to families to professionals where you can get A/C or CEUs. For finishing that. And, the link will. Take you to the registration page. It's on the bridge platform. So I wanted to comment on adding that.

>>Shanna: So the next thing that we're gonna talk about is to detect, analyze, and cross intersections. That's kind of one of the harder pieces I think sometimes. The student will discuss the top intersection with the O and M specialist, determine the type of control whether it's a stop sign, a light, or an uncontrolled intersection. Is it safe for them to cross? You know, what kind of traffic is there the access to auditory information? What's the near parallel surge of traffic and the, you know, when is it safe to cross the street? So how can I support this area? You've got a Teach the scanning. Concept development, pavement markings, traffic signs, and signals parallel versus pep perpendicular traffic. So, you know, I think one of the things that you don't think about is How do you work specifically on these skills? You know, if you want to share in the chat, then are you doing this inside the building prior to taking this student outside? You know, there types of intersections you can look at in a classroom or in a school setting that are very similar to what you have outside as well. So inside the student would demonstrate the ability to scan in a horizontal manner from building to building. And then they'll demonstrate what their parent the ability to scan. Horizontally to see the objects of the road signs and markings within their environment. So that way we're transferring the information not just for us, but they're doing it in the car. And sometimes I think, you know, I have a son that's a 17 year old and he's not the best driver.

>>Cindy: Yeah.

>>Shanna: So one thing that I do whenever he's in the card is I try to ask him about things as we're moving along and I do tell him. You know, hey, you need to put your phone down. You gotta look and then sometimes just being the passenger in the front seat versus the back seat. I think sometimes we leave our students in the back seat instead of the front. And it's easier for them to see what they're going to be looking at at the same angle, but then in the back seat, you can be telling them what to be looking for as well. So these are the different certified driver rehab specialists. That Cindy was aware of.

>>Cindy: These are the ones who support that our workshop. Their Yeah, it says Whether they support across Texas or a specific area. So. Those are 3 possible contacts.

>>Shanna: Thanks. So the upcoming in the driver seat student parent workshops, there's 1 Saturday, November 9th from 9 a. M. To 4 p. M. Vanderland French is the contact there region at regions 10 and 11 are gonna pair again. Alexa will know more information to come and then it It'll be Friday through Sunday, February, 28th through March second. And the referral is done through the short term programs.

>>Alexa: And if anybody's interested, if you if you're in the North Texas area and you're interested in attending that just email me and I'll make sure that you're on our list serve to receive that information when it does come out.

>>Cindy: Shannon, can we go back or the that resources slide I don't think stayed up very long to point out.

>>Shanna: Okay.

>>Cindy: What?

>>Shanna: Okay, and find my share screen again. I think Lisa is gonna. Share her screen this time.

>>Cindy: Okay. I think I can remember the.

>>Alexa: Slide 21.

>>Cindy: Finding wheels is. Through TSBBI publications, it's in the second edition. That primarily talks about active traveler so the person when you're not behind the wheel but there is one chapter on biopic driving the, O and M role, the ARE position paper, I think can be helpful for. The calms, these students who have that best level of vision. 2,200 or better why are we needing to serve them And it's, I think gives that ammunition for, those that, critical. Getting them potentially ready for being a driver And then there is a JVIB article, Chuck Hus. He, I know he's been called, the pioneer of biopic driving. He started working in the field on this. Almost 40 years ago and has done tremendous amount of presenting nationally and internationally. So really has a name in this and then Dr. Anne Corn who is a biopic driver. They, have that published article. The documents that Alexa showed at the beginning, the step by step guide to pre-driver readiness that we based our checklist on Chuck created that step by step guide and we've shared with families at the workshop to help parents have that sense of what is my role in this. So wanna be sure those names are familiar. Thank you for re sharing.

>>Shanna: And Che is asking if the PowerPoint will be available.

>>Cindy: Yes. And that is our contact info. We've all agreed this has been kind of that aha topic of getting students ready for this. Happy to be contacted. With additional questions or, The upcoming workshops. We can share more information on that as well.

>>Shanna: And then someone asked if you posted the modules in the, in the.

>>Cindy: That the link is in the chat. And I can describe if you go to TSBBI, online learning. TSBBI online learning, it will connect you to our modules that anybody can take and then put buy optic in the filter and it will pull up those modules. You'll get to register for a bridge account. It just a lot of quick video clips they move very quickly So.

>>Shanna: And Donna just posted that in the chat as well.

>>Cindy: And I think we.

>>Alexa: Does anybody have any questions or comments? Or? Things you'd like to know more about that we didn't go deep enough into any thoughts.

>>Donna: How are you? Sorry, y'all, I just realized I posted all of those to just the hosts and panelists and not to everyone. So I'm reposting those for everybody.

>>Cindy: I think some things we found out from this group of students. They do not identify they largely the ones who have attended our workshop and we've now have 160, a hundred 80 who have attended over the past 13 years that because they have that best level of vision, they're primarily print readers. I'm not part of that VI crowd. As typically cited. I don't use, I don't want to use again. I don't use a lot of tools. But this topic gets them invested in services. It's you know, especially by the time they're 1415 because that's what teenagers are talking about is getting ready for that driver's license and helping our students understand. Do I want to pursue this when parents come in the room and the students as well, it runs that whole gamut of we literally have parents say on the 1st night you people are crazy. This cannot be legal. And then another, you know, father who's, oh yeah. My kids got this. This is fine.

>>Shanna: Okay. Yeah.

>>Cindy: It's gonna be great. But that kid is not crossing an inner section independently. It's understanding the demanding task that this is. And the students have identified, you know, there's a lot more in driving than the visual criteria. Processing time, judgment, decision making, problem solving, motor skills. There's a whole list. Of you know what's required to be a good driver and within our field we focus on the vision piece but there's a lot more to it than that. And in my conversations with students. They've commented on, yeah, I don't wanna own a vehicle. I've got lift. I can get an we know the Google car the autonomous vehicle is eventually coming Don't need it or, it can be very important to them. So the students really run the range. Of how they could perceive consider this topic.

>>Alexa: Sandy, one thing you mentioned, that I thought was really good was the idea that many of the students, especially when they get to be 14 and 15 years old, this is a carrot for them.

>>Shanna: And I.

>>Alexa: They're looking for the possibility of being able to drive. So I feel like it establishes a lot of relevance for those prerequisite skills that we're trying to teach them. So I know we struggle with this age population of getting them motivated to go on O and M lessons and learn all these things. And I think if they realize that that's all a means to an end. Then that will help them be more motivated to actually engage in the learning process for all the prerequisite skills that we're talking about that the comms is already working on. So I think by using the checklist and by understanding as a comes. Kind of the big picture of how these things come together because I think our programs don't always prepare us for the conversation on biopic driving but really when you look at it it is all prerequisite skills and I think when you see that you can you can really have that conversation with students in a way that's more meaningful to them and also to parents because I'm sure most of the attendees here have at some point been asked by a parent, will my child be able to drive? Well, we don't know that. We don't make that decision, but we can say that as part of what we do, we are building those concepts that are important. For the possibility of that. So I think it all just comes together very nicely and I think if people understood that more they would be more comfortable with that conversation because I think a lot of O and M's aren't comfortable with that conversation. And so we want them to be more comfortable.

>>Shanna: And I think sometimes we miss this population of kids as well. I know until we started doing, yeah, until we had some kids come in and I knew some of the kids from a place I previously worked. I'm not sure that some of the kids that we had here at our drivers training were kids that typically have gotten O and M services. And, you know, the scary thing is, okay, what if they can't drop? Then they have to be able to know how to take public transit or they have to know how to do Uber or Lyft or something along those lines and how often do we just miss out? Because we think, oh well they've got it because they they can travel at school and they're good.

>>Alexa: Right.

>>Donna: Shanna, I think that's a great point in that some of our students that would definitely be eligible. Are not receiving services. So, you know, how do we go about getting those kids to receive? Services for this. We had Elena. Comment another consideration may also be dashboard cameras. Both to protect our student drivers and ourselves, in between schools. Let's see, Judy came with a question. Do you include the restrictions that the students may have regarding driving like only during the day. How does how are those established?

>>Cindy: It. In Texas, the form is called the DL. 63 that the low vision specialist will complete. That form then when you take it into DPS or DMV, it waves you the student will not have to put their head in the vision. Measuring machine, it says the low vision specialist confirms this student meets the visual criteria to drive and the there's a section on the form that no highway driving, no nighttime driving, it depends which restrictions. Would get placed on that. So every state, I think it's a different, what that form is called. One thing we've helped our, when we've talked with families on this because we are a low-incidence population. This biopic thing does not come up very often in the DPS office and we've had some really rough stories of family saying they wouldn't even talk to us. They said you guys are crazy. This can't be legal. And we then kind of worked with families on if a calms or a TVI can join you on getting that you know when you go in and get your permit because Com's Tvi's more typically know the formal language than families don't have as much of a comfort level. And ask for a supervisor. At DPS because the people at the front desk there's a lot of turnover and they just don't see this population that often. So, it is part of, medical advisory board guidelines. It's just not, there's when we hear from families, it's information on this topic is inaccurate. Confusing or inaccessible. It's very hard to find and that's why I think having that conversation. The columns helping families understand this is really, really important.

>>Shanna: And Cindy, I think this is something that as a calm, it was an area that I used to steer clear of because I thought, - I'm not gonna be liable for that. And having met you guys and worked with the program that you have, it really opened my eyes to wait a minute. There's a lot that I could contribute not just in teaching the O and M skills but in in helping guide the families and what to do. It really should be a partnership that we have to learn more about as professionals in order to help our students.

>>Cindy: And it's, you know, our students, a lot of them said they didn't pursue the drivers license until it's when they're 23 and 24 that I'm getting the calls that they said yeah I did the workshop 8 years ago. Can you remind me blah blah blah because life hadn't changed enough that required them to do that step of, okay, now I need my drivers license. But by the time they're hitting those into the twenties. Life circumstances are making it. Yeah, I'm ready to pursue this. I've dealt with my nervousness or my anxiety or even the ability, but the budget to own and operate a vehicle. It's it's a commitment. So the students it can take a little while. Learning about that you know building those pedestrian skills while they're in our school setting, really important and can be applied. Once they. Wanna pursue driving.

>>Alexa: We have some more in the chat too. Judy says, is this something that should be a topic for, more often shared through ARE in our professional organizations?

>>Shanna: Okay. Absolutely, and we actually are preparing to present it

>>Cindy: I am, alternate at AER for the biopic topic. I hope it will be, yeah, I've submitted. We'll see if That will be and. We presented in Texas a bit more. On this topic. And it's, you know, I always, this is such a doable model to bring families together and hear about just what we were able to do in November in regions 10 and 11. You need a low vision specialist. To talk, you know, visual factors of driving and what is the biopic. You need a certified driving rehab specialist or the driver training, the person who has experience. Working with the, young person who was visually impaired. We found biopic drivers who were panelists. For us. Alexa led the pre-driver readiness. Part that helped families. She and, OT. Helped families understand you know kind of boots on the ground practically. In practical ways, how can we do this? And I think You know, the 4 of us in the room that day felt the energy of families going. They come in very nervous and at the end of the day, Okay, yeah, this is something we can talk about. We can work on this. And I've wanted, you know, my whole point in any of these presentations on this is to help other states replicate this model. Make it happen in your state because you have. Low vision specialist. You have driving rehab. Specialists. You have I think only 2 states do not allow biopic driving. The great majority in the US do.

>>Shanna: The next question was at what age roughly would you recommend introducing this topic with students and parents? I mean, when, when would you start talking about driving with any student? I think is one thing and maybe sometimes I could see that you would talk about it earlier. Especially if you think the student can't drive, but, out of Cindy, you probably could speak better to that than I can.

>>Cindy: I would at least by middle school, I don't think we need to wait until freshman or sophomore year. Because again, they may not become a driver right away, but we want a 4, th 5, th 6th grader. To know how do I analyze an intersection? How do I manage to cross it safely if I'm in the neighborhood with my friend? It's that is getting them ready to be safe in traffic. Whether walking or at the wheel. But I think by middle school having met with the low vision specialist. Talking with you know then take a family 2 3 4 years to oh no way My kids not gonna drive. Okay, 2 years later. In the IEP art meeting, you know, he visual meets the visual criteria. What do you think? Do we want to focus more on that? In O and M time? So it becomes, you know, a group. Decision and goal setting and planning.

>>Shanna: Well, on the other pieces, if they're not gonna be a driver, you need to be planning, you know, late middle school, early high school for how is this. Student gonna travel independently because you can be a very, Cindy's a great example of how you can be an independent traveler without having a car. But you have to be, you know, and some kids come by a little more naturally, but for some kids it's a lot harder, especially if you're a little bit socially awkward. It's hard to use your voice and say, hey, I'm on the right bus. Or you know.

>>Cindy: Yeah.

>>Shanna: Hey, is this the right Uber? You've gotta know what I mean, even as an adult when I left or Uber, I'm forever looking to see, okay, is this the right blossoms plate? Is this the right color car? Is this the route make a vehicle and those are things that we need to be teaching our students in O and M if they're not going to be drivers as well, you know, because they've got to be able to be independent. And if you can't travel independently, you can't leave your house.

>>Cindy: And that's what we talk anytime, you know, we do in the workshop, the active traveler is part of this because the workshop. Or even a. You're not trying to convince you, meet the visual criteria, you should drive. I heard that for a long time. I am on the borderline. I do meet the visual criteria, but it is not a comfortable topic for me, not in the city that I live in. So there are different reasons that you would decide to drive or not to drive, even drivers may be, you know, without your vehicle. It's in the shop. For multiple reasons or not a driver. So what are your options? Alternate modes of transportation and finding wheels chapter by chapter goes through that. Very readable. Family friendly, lesson friendly book.

>>Donna: Thank you everyone. It doesn't look like we have any new questions in the chat as of yet.

>>Cindy: Yes.

>>Donna: We've got about 7 min if anybody has any other questions. If not, we started on time. We may get the gift of time in those last few minutes.

>>Shanna: Okay.

>>Donna: But I don't want to cut anyone short if they have a question. Is there anyone that still has a question? If not, we are going to. Wrap up! Alright, thank you Cindy and Alexa and Shanna and Alicia. For hosting tea time this week with prejarver readiness and pedestrian readiness.