TSBVI Coffee Hour: Interactions with Children who are Deafblind: A Conversation and Website Introduction 9-27-21 >>Kaycee: I'm happy to introduce todayÕs presenter, my teammate, Chris Montgomery. >>Chris: Thanks, Kaycee. That was a brilliant set of instructions and bits of information you gave there. Thanks for the introduction. Well, let me start by sharing my screen and when I do this, just so everybody knows, all of this Zoom stuff kind of disappears for me so I'm going to rely on my teammates to let me know if somebody's asking a question or anything. My name is Chris Montgomery and I work at the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired as part of the Deafblind project outreach team. I worked as educational consultant and as part of my job I get to hang out with awesome people, like my friend here Nolan. And I came to Austin back in the '90s with my pseudoAmericano jug band to play music in the music capital of the world and somehow I ended up at TSBVI. I don't know where that left turn took place, maybe Albuquerque, but all of these years later here I am talking to you guys and it's really nice to be here with you all. So, I want to just do some little introductions here. [ Foreign language] >>Kaycee: Chris, this is Kaycee. >>Chris: Hello, what? >>Kaycee: It sounds like there's a problem. I hear a woman's voice and it doesn't sound like English. Maybe Italian. >>Chris: A woman's voice? Italian? I did not hear that. I was giving my demonstration on how to bake a cake. Kaycee, what was going on? >>Kaycee: We were hearing -- I think an Italian woman. Who knows what she was talking about. >>Chris: So, let me get this straight. So, you heard somebody else talking and you knew it wasn't going right and you knew it wasn't your language, this English thing. How did you know it was even a language? How did you know it was a woman speaking? Maybe I changed my voice. [Laughter] >>Kaycee: Well, I know you pretty well and it did not sound like you and it definitely wasn't English because I speak English and I did not understand what she was saying. But it did sound like language and that it was strewn together and I actually spent some time in Italy and my grandparents are from Italy. It sounded familiar but I didnÕt quite understand it. >>Chris: And somehow in this whole thing here you realized this Montgomery has gone off the rails. This is not how a webinar should start. True? >>Kaycee: True. Yes. >>Chris: Well, to let everybody know, I Googled very beautiful Italian woman baking a cake and thatÕs what you were hearing there. So, I'm going to ask you a couple more questions then, Kaycee. You realized that Montgomery's not talking now and somethingÕs wrong so you must have an idea of what English language is and this isn't it. And this is this webinar and something's not right. So where did you learn the language that you speak? >>Kaycee: From my parents as a young child. Just listening to them talk to each other and talk to me. >>Chris: And so, we all have these experts around us that are with us from the moment we're born and before we're born, actually, that are teaching us about this thing called language. So, we have experts in place the moment we're born, to start helping us develop language with concepts, putting stuff together. And what do you know? Pretty soon weÕre talking. How did you learn how a conversation works? >>Kaycee: I would say very similarly. From listening to others around me have conversations and then as a young child starting to have them myself with my parents and neighbors and other people that were around. >>Chris: And so, all of us have access to like how this works, right? We can see other people and the stop and start, serve and return of a conversation. We can start to put this together from across the room. We don't even really have to, like, be the one in the conversation. We can be eavesdropping and figure this all out. Like this whole concept of what a conversation is. And that's not even -- IÕm not even going to ask you about the concept of a webinar. That one's pretty far out, right? But, again, we can kind of learn what this is without a whole lot of work. We can go to a webinar and kick back and watch what happens and learn how a webinar is supposed to go. God forbid youÕre me or the guy on the hot seat today and you have to be speaking and presenting. But today we're accessing this through our vision, through our hearing -- most of us, anyway. Technology. And then there's this one other thing that I think maybe is further down the list of the most immediate things we think of and thatÕs tactilely. What kind of tactile information are we getting today? What kind of tactile bodily information are we getting today? That might be your fingers on the keyboard. It might be if youÕre sitting at your desk, the feeling of the seat that youÕre sitting on or the proprioceptive feedback that we get. We can be really passive about it and it comes to us automatically, these concepts, this information that comes to us. You're sitting there waiting, is Montgomery ever going to tell us something good today? You know, you don't really have to do much here. But what does this mean for our congenitally Deafblind kids? We as adults, are we speaking in Italian to them, in effect? Are we speaking a foreign language? If their experience of the world is tactile, if they can't access things visually or auditorially, shouldn't we be speaking in a tactile language too? How are we going to meet them more than halfway? How are we letting them know that we're listening and how are we letting them know that we're interested in what theyÕre saying and that we're going to take the time to respond to those things in a meaningful way and weÕre not going to be a beautiful Italian woman whoÕs got a beater in her hand. Because that doesnÕt mean anything. So as far as this idea of being passive observers too and gatherers of information, we've got to forget about it when it comes to our kids who are Deafblind. They're gathering information, informing concepts and learning language. It's not passive. It's going to be super active. They've got to be in the mix and experiencing things where the action is. >>Kaycee: Chris, I think you would like to know Barbara Miles just posted in the chat and said great questions, Chris. We're happy you're here, Barbara. >>Chris: Well, I don't have any answers. I'm going to tell you guys this right off. This incidentally, the picture that you see, is Charlie chaplain and Helen Keller and it's supposedly the first time they met. I don't know if that's actually true but you can see Helen's hand on Charlie's mouth and heÕs smiling and she's kind of smiling too. So, again, theyÕre starting this conversation, this greeting, it looks like, in a conversational mode that Helen can understand. All right. So, we're going to put up our first poll question today. And just trying to get a gauge on where everybody's at with this stuff. So, what is your experience with individuals who are Deafblind? Are you coming to it anew? Have you been doing it forever? Just where are we at in this stuff? And also, maybe we can throw up in the chat what are you hoping to get from todayÕs conversation? And, like Barbara says, I'm already asking lots of questions and lots of these questions are really hard to answer. And truly it's going to be the rule of the day. A lot of this stuff, itÕs really like self-inquiry and so maybe though your wheels are already turning, I hope so. What is tactile language and what do you mean by that? And is there a curriculum for that or a chart, how-to chart? Is there an assessment? You know, I guess my answer to that is maybe. A definite maybe. And itÕs this maybe thing because all humans are different and all individuals who are Deafblind are humans. So, all Deafblind learners are going to be different and so I think the big question that we have to ask is are we up to the task of becoming experts in Deafblind language? Are we up to the task of becoming quietly present in order to be the expert observer? And are we up to the task of co-creating a language with our students who are Deafblind so that we can help to build that bridge between the tactile experience of the world and the seeing/hearing experience of the world. And it looks like we have lots of experts on here today. We have a family member -- two family members. And we also have actually a lot of people who are pretty new. So that's awesome. That's really great. IÕm glad that we have a sort of a mixture. So maybe youÕve heard this expression. The more I learn the less I know. And honestly that kind of sums up how I feel about all this, this interaction and communication business, especially when IÕm kind of wondering about these things with congenitally Deafblind kids and many of the questions we're going to pose and you can find on the website donÕt necessarily have answers and its wanderings from our brains and self-inquiry. We hope it will prompt our audience in that direction too. We could have given a how-to list I think, maybe, with caveats. A prescribed set of directions or something that you can plug in. But often it seems when we do that and we go to plug them in on actual kid, it doesn't really work. Again, because all kids are different and individual and, you know, its kind of goes to this idea we're not building Ikea shelves. These are human beings. And so, as we go through today, the website -- I'm going to jump over there in just a moment -- but please put stuff in chat. We're going to have some poll questions that come up and stuff like that. This whole idea of this webinar has got to be one of the worst inventions for having a conversation but weÕre going to go what we can with it. Let's jump over to the website. And so, I just went to the Texas Deafblind Project website, and we can put that link in chat. If anybody wants to just jump on the website and browse or follow along, please do so. To get to where we're going to be talking about today, Deafblind interaction, click this tab here. Can everybody see this okay, by the way? Make this a little larger. So, this takes you in to the website or the welcome page. And today -- the website was written to read kind of front to back, like a book. However, you can also jump around. ThatÕs completely valid. You don't have to read it from front to back or anything. And, in fact, today IÕm going to be doing more of a curated tour. And IÕm going to be jumping around a lot because we just donÕt have time to go into depth on much of it. So, to get into the website proper, click this and it all opens up. And so, the first page that I'm going to come to is the art of a conversation. And so, what comes to mind when I ask you what is your idea of a great conversation? You might answer by saying that you felt heard, that your partner was listening to what you had to say, and that the topic was of interest. You might say that your partner is listening. There wasn't judgment or interruption. And so, in this ideal conversation, there would also be this easy turn taking. I talk, you listen, you talk, I listen. Thank you, Barbara, for that side note. And there would be a sharing of information and also a sharing of emotion. And our conversation would follow an arc that started with a greeting and the arc would rise as our excitement mounted and it would rise and fall. This rising and falling could be expressed through body movements or facial expressions, the tone of our voice. And it would all be reflected back at us like a mirror as our partner, they were reacting to our spoken and unspoken communication. And so, another thing for us to consider, most of us conversations aren't started because there's something one person wants to tell the other person. A good conversation isn't about giving directions. Good conversations aren't a one-sided affair and many times conversations raise as many questions as they answer. Many times, people interact with one another to process something or maybe they're thinking about something and they just want to share it with an active partner. So, I'm going to go to the bottom of this page and you guys, when all of you go and explore the website, you will notice that there are lots of videos that are here. And we have videos from some of our best friends and colleagues that weÕve learned from over the years. And we have some videos of kids and teachers and all kinds of stuff. But I'm going to start with this video of Dr. Jan Van Dyke and this was a conversation we had with him the last time he was in Austin. There we go. [ Captioned video] >>Chris: So, I just think that is a really, really beautiful thing and leave it to Jan to say that. I donÕt know what else to say about that one but other than it really resonates with me. I want to just take a minute now and go to our acknowledgments page and give a little bit of history about kind of how we got started with all this. Why weÕre doing it. So, I have to go back a few years and I met this woman, Bernadette and we were doing work on the modules, open access modules and I was absolutely struck by the ideas she was giving to us. I was working on her team and she was really challenging us to consider and reflect on what was happening in these conversations and interactions we were having with our students. I also learned that she had developed a two-year training using video analysis to look at those conversations and interactions. And so of course I approached my team back here in Austin about it. People, we got to do this. I coerced my poor boss at the time, Cyral Miller. I think it's safe to speak for my entire team to say that was game changing for us in a lot of ways. It helped us sort of reframe our interactions with Deafblind kids but it also helped us kind of think about how we were interacting with the rest of the world too. There's this kind of universal human truth of interaction. Along the way, we also made lots of other friends too. Dr. Suzanne and Gunnar and Dr. Paul Hart. All these people were coming to Austin and talking with us and meeting with us and we were getting to learn from them and we were also able to keep dialogue with many of our old friends, like Barbara, who is on the call today, and Dr. van Dijk. Let's just say the conversation was building momentum, big time. And for me, personally, all of these in-depth conversations just helped me connect the dots on stuff, I think. So, along the way, Bernadette and I cooked up an idea to create a website. Why is a website, you might ask? Why not a book or a series of articles or something like that? The thinking is and was that a websiteÕs dynamic. We're still learning this stuff so as we learn, we can add more. A website can also include videos. It's a really good way to show this stuff in action. One of the first people I grabbed and whose sleeve I started to pull on was Kate Hurst. We all wrote and dreamed a little bit but the project ended up getting put on hold. But because Kate is one of the get it done women, she asked me to write something, which made me really nervous, to be truthful. Fast forward, all of our COVID stuff hit, pandemic stuff and we were locked up. And she hit me up again and she said, Montgomery, time has come. You need to get on this. And this time she brought reinforcements in the person of Charlotte Cushman. And, with that, I would like to introduce two of my coconspirators on this project, Kate and Charlotte, the get it done double earth women. I apologize right here and now in front of everybody for making you work with my Gemini air/water self. I'll see if you have anything you want to add on that. >>Charlotte: Thanks, Chris, I loved every minute of it and I saw Julie made a wonderful comment in the chat that said it's so great that it's not just a checklist, that your creative approach opens up so much in terms of possibilities. And I have to say that I was much more of a we need the bullet points and the step by step and I've really been persuaded through this process that opening up the process of inquiry is the most powerful and helpful way to bring this out. So, thanks for all you've taught me. >>Kate: Chris, I'll just throw in my two cents here because I really went kicking and screaming into this. I want a recipe. I want a list. I want to know exactly how each little thing should happen and you were not obliging me. And that made me crazy. But I will say this: I think one of the things thatÕs so important about this approach is this is new, really new stuff and we are in a place in our profession that we have not been at before where we can take a deep dive into what it means to be a tactile learner. And I mean that all the way down to the bones in terms of our ability with technology now to do research, scientific research to see whatÕs going on in the brain and whatÕs happening and what's different and what's the same. And youÕve really made me think differently and you certainly exposed me to a lot of new concepts that make me want to dive a little deeper into this. So as much as I protested, I'm really grateful for you. I've learned a lot. It's been a lovely professional conversation and I hope that that's what we trigger with this website is a lot of conversations among our colleagues in thinking about this new content, or new way of looking at this. >>Chris: Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for your kind words. That's not what you say when we're not on camera. >>Kate: Right. [Laughter] >>Chris: But, yes, the whole idea of inquiry and thinking about it more, I feel like there are so few of us in this field that it is beneficial when we can come together and try to just talk and process and say what if, right? One of the things that I forgot to mention is that this website, our writing is really coming at the angle of the congenital Deafblind kid, not the person who was born with sight or with hearing but the person who from birth was born without sight or hearing or else without that intact, because it's that experience that weÕre trying to explore. What is this if you don't have a base understanding? If you're not predisposed to be able to see or hear what's happening out there, how do you put it all together, develop language and concepts and stuff? So just want to kind of make that claim. Do you guys want to stick around and we'll keep going through stuff? Okie doke. I'm going to go to this page, our next little stop on the journey is tactile bodily perspective. And so, I'm going to read a little bit from the website, so bear with me. When we say "tactile perspective" I think that most non-Deafblind people think about what we touch through our hands, maybe even more specifically our fingertips. Try to understand the tactile perspective of a child who's Deafblind, especially one who is born Deafblind. I think it's important that we think further than our own fingertips. What information is gathered through the hair on our arms? As when a breeze is gently blowing on a sunny day and when we feel the sun on our face, even though we may not pay particular attention to it, weÕre aware of it and we're aware of the breeze. And even if we're focused on something else, these sensations come to us tactilely, bodily, automatically, much like the visual and auditory information comes to us. We don't really have to work very hard to gather it. And I wonder how immediately conscious of it we are, how conscious of this tactile information we are in comparison to the things that we're seeing and hearing. It feels like most of the time that's what we notice first. And so, if we lack that visual reference of the sun and the sky or the auditory reference of the breeze moving through the trees, we can look over at the branches and we can see that they're moving with the sound of the leaves rustling in the trees. We can see them move but how might we relate these things, these concepts to a person without vision or hearing? What is the language that we use to communicate this tactile bodily feeling of the breeze in our air or the sun on our face? So, the English words for sun has a different meaning here. It's not that big bright yellow or setting on the horizon thing. From a tactile bodily perspective, we might use language like warm or hot and express that through movement or touch sensation. And we think about the word breeze or wind and what does that mean in this context? It's not enough for us to speak or sign these words. We've got to express ourselves through the context of the tactile bodily experience. And I think we're going to put up another chat question too. Whoops. What happened? Sorry, everybody. I'm going to play really quick this video thatÕs Paul Hart talking. [ Captioned video] >>Chris: Well, Kate and Charlotte, I hope you can still see me. My computer seems to have gone berserk on me here. >>We're seeing your document and Charlie Chaplain and Helen Keller. We do have a really good question while you get yourself together there. Elena has been writing some good questions, a central question into the chat, about kind of all well and good but how do we do this with limited resource in a classroom? And she is asking specifically about how to incorporate the much-needed tactile portion of the conversations. >>Chris: Well, I think this goes -- if I understand the question right, Elena, to me it's more about me and the person that I'm with, the Deafblind person that I'm with. I don't really need any materials other than myself to have that conversation. So, itÕs really kind of backing up, being present, being conscious of how you're communicating tactually, being the really great observer. David Browne has a great word for that. I think he calls it the expert observer. What are they trying to tell you and how are they trying to tell it to you? They're not going to tell you in English, chances are, so itÕs going to be up to us to be able to notice that and to be able to affirm it, to be able to respond and start that conversation. No materials needed. >>Charlotte: I would also add, Chris, that there are many videos on this site and you've been showing us, Chris, some examples of some of the great heroes in our field. But there also are lots of great videos of kids and the interactions and I think thatÕs a really good place to pay attention and get some ideas. I was also thinking, with Barbara Miles on the call, I'm kind of embarrassed to quote Barbara Miles, but we can't help it, can we? Barbara really taught me so much about availability for conversation and just being able to sit near someone who is Deafblind and let them know youÕre there and have your hands with your palms face up and just wait. And that doesn't cost anything. It takes some time, it takes some patience but no special equipment. So, I think you can get going with just really basic ideas, Elena. >>Kate: And also, my two cents in. I think one of the biggest challenges, and I'm sure you know this, when you're in a busy classroom with lots of kids itÕs very hard sometimes to tune out the rest of the world and tune into that child. And I think that whole thing of being present and being a good observer and being there to affirm is -- itÕs a tricky walk to walk in a busy classroom. I think thatÕs why you need the support of a team. You may not be able to do it in every instance of the day but if your team is working together you've all got the same goals, you can free each other up when they see an engagement happening, to sort of keep others back a little bit, maybe, or to support them, give them a little bit more time to have that conversation. It's difficult. I mean, I donÕt think any of this is like a breeze. It's like very hard. It's one-on-one. It doesn't happen in groups very easily. >>Chris: Yeah, especially the group thing, especially to start with, right? It's more than me and your kind of thing. And I know that when I had my classrooms I would kind of build some times into the day -- and, again, like Kate says, it's like the team thing. Hey, team, I need you to handle the rest of the class because I'm going to have a conversation with one of my students. And so, itÕs kind of like I think giving yourself permission, you know? That I don't have to be up spinning all the plates all the time. That I can sit and be calm and focused and present with this one individual and have this conversation. And pretty soon those conversations can get really deep, you know? ItÕs pretty cool. But like Kate says too, I don't think itÕs an easy thing. I'm not trying to make this sound like it's just a simple deal. I'm going to move on, if that's okay. >>Kate: Go ahead. While you're doing that, Chris, Julie mentions, she says this points to the need to ensure that the child has a trusted partner nearby and observant to engage in the conversation. That might be an intervener or a para with the teacher having conversations but someone is consistently available. And I think that's the thing. When a child is congenitally Deafblind and is accessing the world primarily through touch, there has to be a trusted partner nearby. There just has to be, for that child to really be learning anything. It is access. It's like a stair -- it's like an elevator for a kid who can't walk upstairs. It's just that basic. >>Chris: Yeah, most of our kids are not going to walk over and say, excuse me, excuse me, I have something to tell you now. So, yeah, it's kind of up to us. That's a really good point, Julie. Thanks for saying that. Do you guys have anything else from chat that we should -- >>Charlotte: There's a lot in there, Chris, but keep going. We've got lots of great points coming in but I think keep going. >>Chris: Okay. This -- Charlotte and Kate asked me to talk about these pages a little bit, specifically. And they are -- the background on this is a fellow named Lev. Lev is often referred to as the Mozart of psychology. Similar to that famous composer, he was really genius early in his life and he had all this different stuff -- the more I read about him the more incredible. But also, like Mozart he died young, he died when he was 37 from tuberculosis. He began his career as an educator and psychologist around the time of the 1917 Russian Revolution and he ended up moving to Moscow in the early '20s and he became central in the field of special education there. The Special Ed in Moscow was called defectology. And he worked at this institute called the institute of defectology. And during his time working there he was working with Deaf students, with blind students and that's all I could find but I have to wonder if he wasn't working with some Deafblind students. It's really amazing to read his thoughts on this stuff, his thoughts on education and the influence that that seemed to have had on him. He argued that the differences with these students, with these people were really a result of their social experience. So, in other words, the general lack of social interactions and relationships and experiences were what was shaping the studentÕs psychology. So basically, he was saying this defective child label is a bunch of crap. Every human, everyone needs a competent and empathetic communication partner and that's how we learn. That's what shapes us. That's how we develop language and concepts. So, way back when he was saying you adults, you've got a job to do here, in essence. And I just love that. One of his tenets was this idea of consciousness was the end product of socialization and interactions with competent partners for learning language and these first utterances, these words, as we were hearing them, would start to develop inner speech or self-talk. He called this dialogicality of the mind. The self-talk also becomes this inner speech, this inner speech helps us process, helps us develop more language and learn concepts. That raises the question for me, anyway, what does self-talk or what does this inner voice sound like for a person who is congenitally Deafblind? What images or sounds and language exists in your mind? What are your personal stories? And, you know, you see that this is also one of the ways that we develop a sense of self or, again, consciousness. What happens when there isn't somebody there who is an expert in tactile language that can teach us? Like Kaycee and I were talking about in the very beginning. She learned English from her parents from when she was first born. She was starting to learn that language. She had an expert right there on the scene to teach her. So, what's happening when that person doesn't exist. What does that inner voice look like? How are our kids learning? Another thing that he talked about was this idea of Zone of Proximal Development. And I'm looking at the time. I would sure like to play a video but I think weÕre running short. There is a video on this page, again, by Dr. Paul Hart and he talks about the double-sided proximal zone of development. Basically, the student becomes the teacher and the teacher becomes the student and we are learning from each other as we create this language and develop these concepts. They're teaching us about their tactile world and how they speak. But we have to be present. We have to observe. We've got to be ready to learn from them. Okay. I think I'm going to jump to five steps of interaction. Kate and Charlotte, does this sound okay to you? >>Charlotte: It does. ThereÕre some wonderful comments in the chat and I think everybody should really get into the website. I hope that youÕre inspired to do that because we can't go through each of the pages but there's a lot in here. >>Chris: There's a lot in here. Sorry that we are constrained in the way we are. I want to just point this out really quick. So as sort of a process. So, weÕre calling it the five steps for interaction. This is just our thinking and we borrowed some stuff from other people too. For instance, the Harvard center for the developing child was a place that we learned from. But basically, these five steps are noticing. So, you've got to be the very present and highly-skilled observer. What is our partner trying to tell us? What are they thinking about? What are they exploring? What are they wondering? We have to be there to notice it. The next step would be affirming. I hear you and I see you and I will answer. And, again, you have to be present and active and listening. And the third step would be name it. So, as we're going through this process, the naming it is starting to build that common language. I see you. I hear you. I'm going to help you put a name to it. We're going to put a name to it together. And then the fourth step would be serving and return. And, again, Barbara's on today and I totally stole this from her but this idea of you talk, I listen, I talk, you listen. It's that conversation that starts to happen. The serve and return. I'm going to serve you a question or a thought and I'm going to wait for you to answer me back and weÕre going to go on from there. That rhythm and flow of conversation. >>Charlotte: Chris? >>Chris: Go ahead. >>Charlotte: Finish up this one. There's a good question I want to ask you in the chat. >>Chris: I'm finished. I was going to ask if you want anything. >>Charlotte: Yeah, I think Laura has made a really wonderful point in here and she writes one problem that I see a lot is that people try to, quote, translate what the child says using their knowledge of language and not hearing the child. I know weÕve talked a lot about that, Chris. Do you have any comments about that? >>Chris: Yeah, it's kind of like when the Italian lady came on and I grabbed my mixer out here. Nobody knew what was going on. If we're not speaking in the same language as our students, then weÕre not really talking to them, right? I feel like we get so caught up in our teacher agenda -- and I'm not going to go on a soap box all the way -- but we get caught up in our teacher agenda of needing results and needing our goals to be met and stuff like that, that we forget to pull back and say I have an active partner in here that can teach me something and how are they talking to me and really trying to understand their mode of language before I come in and say, here's how we're going to talk and here's how we're going to do this and here's the information that I'm going to impart to you today because I'm the teacher. >>Kate: Chris, I just have to say this because I can anticipate somebody saying, yes, but we've got goals and objectives we have to work on. I'm going to say to the this is building expressive communication and to do that you have to get in and co-create language with this child. And that is meeting an expressive communication goal. If your administrator walks by, you can say we're working on expressive communication. This is what this is about. I think it's important for us to be able to advocate with a sound basis for why we're doing what weÕre doing and so I think being able to talk about it from that perspective is important. >>Chris: Yeah, that's -- thank you for saying that, Kate. Because I don't want to put it out there that weÕre saying like forget your goals and objectives and things like that, but just if you want to have that conversation, if you want to establish language, you know, you need to kind of step back and I think approach it from some of these angles, so to speak. >>Charlotte: Barbara, Miles has written in the chat, one of my supervisors said to me the best time to use a word, naming, is when you think the child has that in mind. Thank you so much, Barbara. And I think that gets back to what we said about being the expert observer, right? Trying to think what it is the child has in mind and trying to pay attention to that. A lot of people also were mentioning in the chat, Chris, that the importance of remembering that adults aren't the only ones who can provide those interactions, right? We've got peers who are available, certainly families. So just trying to be creative in thinking about it, especially if youÕve got staffing issues and trying to be realistic. >>Chris: Yeah, no doubt. And I'm glad that that person brought that up because that was another thing that I forgot to mention at the beginning is this website and this discussion, so to speak, itÕs intended for all of us. It's not just for teachers or professionals, it's intended for family members and siblings and paraprofessionals. So, it hopefully is a universally-human thing. I just jumped over to our deeper dive section and so anybody who is interested in learning more can go check this out. We're adding stuff to it all the time. You guys, there are articles from Dr. Paul Hart, more by Lev. They are orderable from the Perkins website on Amazon. Just tons of stuff. >>Kate: Chris, if you scroll down a little further, keep going to the bodily tactile stuff. Nope. Up, up, up to bodily tactile. Right there, stop. Stop. These things from the Nordic welfare center, these are wonderful because, one, they're wonderful content but they're also available for download free online. You can print them out. You can also order them as a book but just to have them. And they are in English. They're also in other languages but theyÕre in English. And that's a tremendous resource. They're really great, great stuff. >>Chris: Yeah. I second that one. Absolutely check it out. I see the time and so I am going to scroll back up. And if I can get my cursor to work. That's what's happening, y'all. My cursor just seems to disappear on me. And I'm going to go to hopefully appropriately beginnings and endings. I saw Maurice was on here. We always need closure, right, Maurice. We hope that you enjoyed us and we hope that you'll write to us. We hope youÕll explore the website and thank you for checking us out and thanks for Kate and Charlotte, Kaycee, everybody for joining in.