TRANSCRIPT
Braille is Literacy
1/27/25

>>Julie: Today's topic is Braille is Literacy. And the structure of today's Coffee Hour is going to be just a little bit different. We're going to have a roundtable discussion and I will be the moderator for this discussion. Our overarching goal for this discussion is to ensure that every student is provided with the tools for optimal literacy development. And that includes our students who are using Braille. And we're excited and we want to get you excited because we love Braille and we want you to love Braille and we want our students to love Braille. A little bit of background. Here at TSBVI, if you've had the opportunity to read essential tools of the trade second edition, you'll already know this . But following a research and a call in the research to develop a new definition of literacy for our student population, we have created a definition of literacy and we define literacy as a non-linear continuum of dynamic skills ranging from initial sensory experiences and play for making sense of the world to higher order reading, writing, comprehension, numeracy, and communication skills at the most advanced post-doctoral level. And we consider all students to be literate. As they are moving through the continuum, they are in different levels of literacy. They are picking up different skills that they need to be fully literate, eventually, and reading and writing. And we also believe that no child is too anything to read and write. All students can learn to read and write -- and I know that some of us are thinking, oh, what about those kiddos with complex access needs? Let me just tell you the research shows it's possible and it's already being done, so get excited because we can help those kiddos learn to read and write as well. We're also going to be moving away from the terminology of Braille literacy and using the terminology literacy in Braille. And the reason for this is when we say "braille literacy," people often hear, oh, we're just going to teach the code. And we teach it separately from literacy that's taught in the classroom. And that's not an ideal situation. That doesn't help the student make connections to their literacy, right? So we want to use the phrase "literacy and Braille" to express that Braille and literacy are inextricably connected. Without literacy, would we need Braille? We just have a code, what do we apply it to? We want to make sure that we are talking about literacy in Braille. Braille's a system for reading and writing, just like print is a system for reading and writing. It is our students who have very low vision or no vision that's usable, to access the curriculum. All righty. So I'm going to go ahead and get us started because our time is ticking away. Well, do you know what? What I would like to do is I would like everybody to introduce themselves here on the panel. Just so you can know just a little bit more about them. I'll start. My name is Julie Majzel. I am bringing both an educator and a family perspective to the conversation. I'm a curriculum lead teacher at TSBVI. I'm a TSVI and a doctoral candidate in reading language and literacy. And the mother of a 14-year-old daughter who is Deafblind. Angela, will you go next for us? 

>>Angela: Hi. I'm Angela Wolf. I'm the director of curriculum here at TSBVI. I myself am blind and I'm a Braille reader. I learned Braille when I was 11 years old after going blind from being totally sighted. And so hopefully today we will have some great discussions about Braille and how we can continue to support our students who are learning Braille and those who maybe previously didn't learn Braille. I'm excited to be a part of this discussion today. 

>>Julie: Neva. 

>>Neva: I'm Neva Fairchild. I am blind. I learned Braille in my 40s. Although I was very visually impaired as a child, I was not given the opportunity to learn Braille, mostly because my parents chose for me not to be exposed. And I found it to be so helpful and wish with all my heart I had been reading it since I was 5, because I'm still a very slow reader. But I believe Braille is important to all children who are not going to be able to read at a level where they will remain a competitive -- at a competitive speed throughout their education and into adult life. 

>>Julie: Thank you, Neva. Melissa. 

>>Melissa: Hello, everybody. I'm Melissa Riccobono. I'm from Baltimore, Maryland. I never know how to introduce myself as far as what I do. I'm a totally blind mother of three. Two of my children are blind but they do have quite a bit of usable vision. They are both dual media learners so they are learning print and Braille. I myself never had enough vision to read print so I learned Braille when I was 4. I was a former school counselor. Currently I have totally switched careers and I am an audiobook narrator and a voice over for descriptive video. I really feel very strongly for Neva because I had the chance to learn Braille at a very early age and because of that I use it so much in my everyday life. And, unfortunately, even though my husband and I both are passionate about Braille, it has been very difficult to watch the ways in which the educational system have kind of been failing our daughters. And so any light I can shed about sort of the -- my opinions about best practices, I'm more than happy to share. 

>>Julie: Wonderful. Thank you. Okay. I think we'll go right into our discussion questions and primarily I am going to let the three of you answer these questions, unless there's something from the literacy perspective that I feel like we need to add a little bit there. But you guys have got this. So the first question is: Why is Braille a gamechanger for students? Whoever has the most passion, speak first. 

>>Neva: I'll try. This is Neva. It's a game changer because it gives a child who is blind or has low vision an equal chance to fully participate in the classroom experience. To be able to read aloud. To be able to look for those italicized words and red words that the teachers want you to read and look up and use in a sentence. To be able to compete with their classmates on an even keel when it comes to access to the written word. 

>>Melissa: And this is Melissa and I completely agree. I would just add that not only does Braille do all those things but it does two other really important things, particularly for kids who might have some vision. Braille doesn't cause any eyestrain. No headaches. No strange to see something that might be too small. No mistakes in math. Both of my children had the experiences where they were trying to do math in print and they were doing it on the computer because that's what their classmates were doing. And my one daughter, after getting the wrong answers, we figured out that she could not see the decimal point. And so she was multiplying, not .5 but 5 times, you know, 3 or .3. But she wasn't using all the decimal points. And our other daughter we just found out can't see the exponents on the computer. And so Braille really eliminates the worries about any of those things because it's right under the child's fingers. I would also say that Braille allows kids to write their own notes that they can then read back. Write their own stories and also get lost in a world of literature. There are so many stories that are just waiting to be read and there's so many stories that are waiting to be told. And Braille is really the gateway and allows blind kids to do those things, just like their sighted peers. 

>>Julie: Well said, Melissa. Thank you. I have a follow-up question real quick. I'm sorry. 

>>Angela: That's okay. 

>>Julie: Melissa, who discovered that your child was not seeing those decimal points? 

>>Melissa: So that was during COVID and I think -- I want to say in both cases it was actually the math teacher. Because the math teacher was like, you guys know what you're doing when we have things at the board or during COVID when we have group lessons it seems like you understand. But all of a sudden on this computer program you're not doing it correctly. I think both times it was actually the teacher, the math teacher. And of course both my girls, they didn't -- I think my younger might have known there was something missing because the class was doing exponents and she's just not good about advocating for herself. But my other daughter just didn't even -- it just never crossed her mind that there was something she was missing. And that's just so important. Kids so often don't know what they don't know or don't know what they can't see until somebody helps them figure it out. 

>>Julie: Thank you. That's what I was wondering is if your children were self-advocating, if they said I can't see something. Something's missing. That's important for us as educators to be aware of that so often our students might be missing something and they don't know that they're missing it. Angela, please continue. 

>>Angela: This is Angela. One of the things that makes Braille a game changer is while we don't have a ton of research about Braille in our field, the research that we do have shows a pretty strong correlation between those who read Braille and the opportunities that they have for employment. And so I think, you know, in terms of post-secondary outcomes for our students, I think making sure that we really understand that Braille readers tend to be employed more often than those who are not, particularly those who have read Braille for a long period of time and who use Braille pretty regularly more than, you know, at least once a week or if not more. So I think it's really important for us as educators. I think sometimes we get sort of laser focused on what's happening in the classroom. But ultimately we want to provide the skills that support our students once they're out of school too. 

>>Neva: This is Neva. Can I add that it also gives them access to the STEM. Science, technology, engineering, and math while they are in school K-12 that they would not have otherwise to be able to do those higher-level math and science. It's just not possible without Braille. It's not as possible as it is with Braille. 

>>Julie: That's a great thought there, Neva, and it really segues into our next question, which is what are the benefits of Braille? 

>>Melissa: Well, this is Melissa and I feel really strongly that -- as I said before, being able to read and write your own stories or your own notes or your own lists. Nobody has to do it for you. You can write it in your own way and you can communicate both to yourself, to help yourself remember things, but also to the rest of the world. And, as a parent -- and now as an audiobook narrator, I am just so incredibly grateful that I am able or was able -- you know, my kids are 12, 14, and 18 now so they don't necessarily want me to read to them anymore. But I have so many lovely memories of being able to pick up books, from the time they were very small and actually from the time they were in the womb, and read to them. And as they got older the stories got longer and more complex. But just as any or many sighted parents enjoy reading to their children, to me that's just looking ahead, not just in what's going on in the classroom. Certainly employment is very important. But those everyday tasks. And something as quote, unquote simple as reading to your child is really huge for me and very special that I was able to do that, just like sighted friends were able to do that. 

>>Julie: I love that. That is something that I am excited to do with my own child as well. Although she's 14, she's still okay with me reading to her right now. 

>>Melissa: Enjoy every second of that. I don't know. Maybe they would be okay if I found something cool enough. It might be A-okay. 

>>Julie: I think they might love it. Angela or Neva, what are the benefits of Braille? 

>>Neva: This is Neva. I think we've hit on many of them already but I'd like to add to the understanding of formatting and vocabulary and punctuation and capitalization that is not possible with an audio rendering of a textbook or a storybook or an audiobook that is for pleasure, even. That you just don't get those kinds of -- that kind of understanding if you don't read Braille. When an audio narrator is reading a book, they don't say "new paragraph." They don't say "exclamation point." Thank goodness because that would be awful. But how else are you going to develop that part of literacy that is so essential to success, especially in higher-level grades and into post-secondary education if a student doesn't understand when a paragraph starts and stops. And that, you know, the difference between, you know, capitalization for acronyms and those kinds of things. If you don't read Braille, you don't know that, you know, way around is a camo case word. It sounds like two words but it's not. It's one word. You don't know that if you haven't seen it in Braille if you're blind or lotion. That aspect of literacy to me is best achieved through braille for kids who are blind or have low vision. 

>>Julie: Such a great point, Neva. And actually the research science, which is currently referred to as the science of reading, shows that students need good models of written text in order to be successful readers and writers. So that's a fantastic point. 

>>Melissa: Sorry. Go ahead. 

>>Neva: It applies to spelling as well. 

>>Kaycee: I was just going to share that there was a comment in the chat. Lisa shared in relation to Melissa's wonderful comment about reading to her children. That she saved all of her daughter's Braille kids' books, even though her daughter is older now, so she'll be able to read those books to her children in the future and have them in Braille already. Sweet comment in the chat there. 

>>Julie: Love it. 

>>Melissa: And this is Melissa, and just really quickly. Proofreading is so essential. And spelling -- especially those words, those homophones that are different but sound alike, it's so important. And part of my job now as a podcast editor is to make sure that the transcripts for each podcast are correct. I'm able to use AI to generate transcripts, which is a huge help, but AI doesn't always get it right. And so being able to hear the podcast and follow along in Braille and make those edits and just proofread easily without having to rely on my technology -- sometimes technology will say something that doesn't sound correct. But other times it will just say something and you think it's right but when you actually look at it in Braille, it's actually not right. It's not the right homophone word. So just super important that way too. 

>>Julie: Absolutely. Angela, did you have something you want to share on that? 

>>Angela: I feel like these ladies covered most of what I would have said. But I think the one other thing kind of goes back to what Melissa was saying during her -- earlier in the conversation where she was talking about, you know, one of the benefits -- or some of the benefits to Braille are that, you know, for some of our students who have low vision, the eye fatigue and the reading stamina piece, the visual stamina that is required for them to read print I think is a benefit to Braille. Because especially if they're dual media students they can switch as they need to. And when they need to, they have more tools in their toolbox in that way so that they can pick the tool that meets their needs at the time that they need it. And so I think just as another layer of the benefits is for those kids who do have some vision. 

>>Neva: This is Neva. That also speaks to the potential of a student with their remaining vision to read fast and efficiently as compared to their potential to read well with their fingertips. It's not comparable. 

>>Julie: Agreed. All right. Well, now that we know why Braille is so beneficial, how do we get students and families excited about Braille? 

>>Neva: This is Neva. I don't want to jump in first but I'm not going to let silence go when I have something to say. This is the $64,000 question, okay? The point is that there are so many barriers to learning Braille that it seems like if a kid says, no, I don't want to use Braille. Yuck! My friends will make fun of me. And the parents or the parents say my kid reading Braille, really? That means they're really blind. Ooh, I don't really want to go there. I don't want to accept that. I don't want to come to grips with that. There's just so many reasons that people throw up and then Braille goes out the window and we have to counteract those. We have to get people excited and give them the long-term ramifications of learning Braille or not learning Braille. And make it enjoyable and fun and let them see benefit as quickly as possible so they do get excited. And, oh, my gosh, I can end my day without a headache? Mom, that's amazing! I read all Braille today and I don't have a headache tonight. I can watch TV and not cry. It's like the things that parents and kids don't know, we have to share with them and we have to make it so that they experience it so they can see how beneficial it is. 

>>Melissa: This is Melissa and I completely agree with that. And particularly for parents. Getting them invested. Thank goodness for all of you. You're all on this webinar. So obviously you want to educate yourselves and you want to know what Braille is and what it isn't. I think seeing other blind adults who use Braille. I think exposing your kids to other adults or other blind kids who are older. Maybe having a Braille pen pal. I just saw a question in the chat that talked about people asking about whether Braille is easier to get or harder to get. And those are really valid questions. And I would say that Braille is easier than ever to get. Now, maybe not well-formatted hard-copy Braille because that takes work. That takes resources. That takes time. But there are now Braille displays which will put Braille pretty much instantly under the fingertips of kids. And that's incredible. And now there's something called the Monarch, which is a new ten-line Braille display which cannot only do Braille but can do tactile graphics. And that has just come out and it's just being tested. And to me that is the incredibly exciting part. People keep trying to say that Braille's obsolete. I'm in my 40s. I have been hearing that pretty much my whole life. And I'm here to tell you that is not true. And in so many ways it's easier than ever to get Braille under your fingertips with pretty decent formatting. Even if it's not hard copy paper Braille. And the library for the blind has, in each state, has Braille e-readers given away to Braille readers for free. You can use those to download library books from the National Library Service right on to that e reader. You can use it to subscribe to a program called -- or resource called NFB Newsline, where you can have newspapers and magazines automatically downloaded right into that e-reader so you can have kids, you know, they say people aren't reading newspapers anymore. Well, as a blind person, some of that is because I have never had the opportunity. Now I can sit down with the Baltimore Sun -- I'm from Wisconsin so Milwaukee journal sentinel. I can look at the news in the morning with my cup of coffee, just like a sighted person might read their newspaper. That's because I can do that all in Braille. So there are many opportunities. Yes, the technology can be expensive but more and more there's ways that this technology is getting more affordable or is being, you know, in the library given away for free. 

>>Angela: This is Angela. I agree, obviously, with all of those things. And I think there are also more and more programs, especially through the Library of Congress, the National Library Service, that each of the state's branches of that service are really trying hard to find ways to engage families in earlier and earlier literacy. And so here in Texas, for example, our state library puts together story boxes with Braille books and then also tactile objects that go along with the storybook so that kids can read with their parents and families and also experience, you know, new concepts as they're reading about them. They also have a program where they will do sort of Braille on demand where they'll produce kids' books for families who participate in their programs. And so I think, you know, everybody recognizes that the access to Braille is part of one of the things we have to make sure is available to students and families of students. And I think that gets to one of the questions we're going to come to later. But part of the other piece is normalizing Braille, not just for our students but, like, if we provide Braille-rich environments for our students, I think then their peers are seeing it regularly too. I remember when I was in high school. I had learned Braille when I went blind in middle school. And one of the things that my Braille teacher did was when my friends were curious about Braille, you know, she would give them little Braille cards with the Braille alphabet. She gave them a slate and stylus. So they started to learn Braille themselves. And so by the time we were in high school, when everyone else was writing notes -- not that we want our kids to be writing notes in high school, but I feel like it's a rite of passage. I was writing notes to my friends and they were writing Braille notes back with their slate and stylus. I feel like it was not as big of a deal as the adults in the situation maybe might make it. 

>>Kaycee: This is Kaycee. We had a great question come in the chat and while it's specific to one student, I think it probably applies to a lot of students. I'm going to read it out. It says how do I get a 5-year-old willing to learn Braille? He won't touch the Braille text unless I take his hand there and he quickly takes it off. He's usually willing to touch tactile graphics. He only wants to scribble on his Braille writer for short amounts of time and not daily. He's not interested in learning the letters. He typically becomes fussy when he's asked to work on Braille. He has no functional vision. His parents have purchased a Braille writer and are fully interested in their child being a Braille reader and writer. 

>>Julie: That's a great question. This is Julie. And two things. One: The student is communicating some distress there, right? And, two, I'm just going to be absolutely transparent with you. I have a kiddo like this who, you know, she's 14 but she didn't have any exposure to language at all until she was 9 years old. We adopted her right around that time. And for her, Braille is just work. She's not really into it. So, panelists, how can we get these kiddos excited about Braille? 

>>Melissa: Well, this is Melissa. First and foremost, I would say this kiddo is 5. And I don't want to dwell on this because I understand that in our society today it's almost as if we want our kiddos to come out of the womb reading. I mean, it's not quite that bad but we push it. And we push it because it's important. But, Julie, correct me if I'm wrong, I think some of the science actually says that kids might not really get all the pieces put together to become really confident and enjoy reading until they're maybe 6 or 7 years old. Maybe even a little bit later. And so I would say first just not giving up. Continuing to do what you can. I would say, too, making it fun. If he's 5, maybe it's, to start with, mazes. You said he would touch tactile graphics. So make sure it's mazes where he has to first trace to find. And maybe there's a -- I don't know what he likes. Maybe, I don't know, a little racer or sticker of a car or a scratch and sniff sticker at the end that he finds, and that might be motivational for him. I would say maybe then having it be mazes with words in it. Maybe having words hidden around the room and if he can find a word or letters -- I don't know where he is. Maybe he's just in letters. If he finds a certain number of letters before his time in whatever room he's in is over, he can get something. Or he works toward something. I would say things like that at home. Putting Braille on different things. Putting -- if he likes, for example, Matchbox cars, maybe have a track in Braille so when he's running his cars around he's getting that sensation in his fingers. It sounds like he doesn't really want to sit still and touch it, so maybe more and more being up and letting him sort of find it in other ways just to explore. Maybe not a whole page. Maybe it's just one or two letters at a time. I would also say two fun games that I always loved were bathtub Braille that I invented when I ran out of time for my daughters to practice their Braille before bathtime. And so I decided to have six cups and we made Braille letters by putting water in the cups to form the letters. So for A we just had the one cup. For B we had the top two cups. For C we had them arranged in a Braille cell. It was a fun way for us to play and it's very sensory. You could do it with sand or Play-Doh, whatever else you want to do. I said two things but I have three now. You can make a beach ball. Put rice in it or spaghetti noodles and break them up so the beach ball rattles. And put letters all around the beach ball and have the tab at the top be kind of your orientation or have something where it tells you if your letter is rightside up or upside down. And you can roll the ball and wherever their finger touches, they have to identify that letter. And, shoot, there was one more. I can't think of it at the moment but I will keep thinking and I'm sure it will come back to me. 

>>Julie: Awesome. I can't wait to hear what that is. Melissa, you made some really great points. For that kiddo that's 5 years old, the research does in fact show that play-based learning, children learn far more and far more quickly than they do with a sit and get kind of teaching, right? So I think it's easy for us to forget that we can be playful with Braille. 

>>Melissa: I just remembered. Braille Twister. You get a posterboard and put six dots of different fabric. Maybe one is sand paper. One is felt. One is, I don't know, furry. And you put them in the Braille cell and you have the child make the Braille letters with his body. Or you do hula hoops on the floor and he jumps from one hula hoop to the other to make different Braille letters. All of those things are learning. Maybe they're not sitting there reading Braille but at least he would know the patterns of the letters and when he's finally ready to sit more still, he might be able to do a little bit more then. 

>>Neva: This is Neva. I wonder if there's some tactile defensiveness going on, and that's pretty common in kids with sensory impairments in general. And that might be something to address. But I totally agree with Melissa's ideas of making it a rich Braille environment. And the six-dot Braille labeler is just an amazing tool, in my opinion, for those of us who want to create our own Braille labels. But for a mom or dad or teacher who may or may not know Braille to be able to connect a QWERTY keyboard up to the six-dot Braille labeler and type out "lion" and it goes on the, you know, necklace or ribbon around the lion's neck. And so that the child runs into Braille in their environment all over the place. Just like a sighted kid might not have "lion" printed on their stuff, but it might on the tag, it might say Leo the lion. And they're seeing those letters, even though they can't read them at first, the world is just rich with print. And I believe we need to make it as rich in Braille for kids to potentially become Braille readers from the time they're babies, to put Braille in front of them. As a low vision kid, the first word I knew how to spell was homogenized. Because the carton of milk sitting on the table when I ate my corn flakes every morning, the biggest word on that half-gallon carton was "homogenized." And that's the print I can see. And the potential Braille reading kids need to see Braille with their fingers. 

>>Julie: Absolutely. And, Neva, that was actually going to be my next question is how can we provide literacy-rich environments in Braille? And the research in literacy shows that literacy-rich environments are imperative if students are going to be readers and writers. And so often I hear the question, well, what if they're not ready for a literacy-rich environment? There's no such thing as not ready for a literacy-rich environment. And I don't want to be insulting at all, it's just not possible to not be ready. As soon as we are born, we are born into literacy-rich environments and we have to make sure that we provide the same access to students who are using touch in order to gain access to literacy. Angela. Go ahead. 

>>Angela: This is Angela. That was one of the things I was going to say is I think because Braille seems complicated, because it's a code, right? We don't think about it in the same terms as we do print. But it is a literacy medium just like print. For our students to be able to have incidental learning, which is how a lot of sighted students start to pick up on the shapes of letters and what words are and the meanings of words and all of those things that literacy-rich environments and print-rich environments provide sighted students. A Braille-rich environment provides that incidental learning for our blind students as well. I know I have worked with families of infants before where, you know, they were labeling things around their house in Braille that the little kids, they were crawling around would put their hand on the table and they would be able to feel the label for table. Or the window or the whatever. So making it a part of just everyday life for our students as early as you possibly can I think is important because, again, if they don't encounter it -- because blindness is such that it's not a distance sense so you have to get contact with the Braille in order for it to be meaningful. And so in order to do that you have to put it places that students and kids will encounter. And so that's part of what building a literacy-rich environment looks like for our students. I saw some things come through the chat of like place the Braille on their favorite toys. You know, some of their favorite things. I think those are great ideas because that's going to get them touching the Braille. Whether they're formally learning how to read it yet or not, they're touching the Braille so they're getting used to feeling what those things are and that those dots may have meaning in some way. 

>>Melissa: And this is Melissa. Just piggybacking on that, it's so important to have -- kids have books in Braille. So even if you are a sighted parent, buying books that have the print on one side and the Braille over it or on a separate page and making sure when you're reading you're taking your child's hand and gently placing it on the Braille or maybe putting your hands on the Braille and running your hands across it, even if you can't read it. Helping your child understand those are words and that's what makes up the stories. And whenever you can getting books with raised pictures. Those are really fun to explore. As they get older, making sure that they have books that they really enjoy. I never became a true reader until fourth grade when I finally found a book about a dog and loved it. And eventually kind of almost devoured it. I was taking it home from school to read it at night. And that was just unheard of. I just wasn't -- I loved stories, I just didn't like to read them myself. And all of a sudden I found this book and it all clicked and it is what made me a reader. And so making sure that you have books for your child. Library services are great but there's also the American Action Fund for blind children and adults. We give one free Braille book a month to kids. Right now they're for kids between the ages of maybe 7 and 12 or so. They're kind of earlier chapter books but there's also Seedlings Braille Books for children that you can get free books through their book angel project. There's the national Braille book press club. Those are for kids birth through age 7 or so. There's the National Federation of the Blind Braille reading pals program. There's lots of different places where you can get books for your kids, just like you would want your sighted children to have a book-rich environment, even if they're not reading books yet. Having your child have Braille books -- not to say you never want to get a print book. That's great if you want to read them a print book that you can't find in Braille. But as many as you can get in Braille as possible is great so you have that environment. And kids really start to associate reading with that feeling of those bumpy dots. 

>>Neva: This is Neva. It's so beautiful now that once a child gets past those early reading stages they no longer need a little red wagon to take their Braille books with them. They can use a refreshable Braille display, either provided by the school district or by the talking book program. And they can have hundreds of books in an electronic device that's no bigger than a VCR tape. And have those books with them all the time. It's just such a blessing to me to be able to have those books. And magazines. We didn't mention magazines earlier but magazines are a big resource that's available in Braille for download and hard copy. There's times when hard copy's essential. If the Braille display loses power on an airplane and I was dumb enough to pack my charger in my -- under the plane luggage, then I really would like to have a volume of a magazine in my tote bag. But that's just so important that they realize -- the parents realize and the teachers realize what a rich Braille environment a child can have. 

>>Julie: Thank you, Neva. I'm seeing in the chat that there's a question about motivation. And it says what ideas do you have to get students with low vision reading Braille? I'm really struggling with the dual readers learning Braille right now. They just aren't motivated and their teachers and parents don't support the Braille either. I think those are two questions but let's talk about that motivation piece first. You know, for me -- and because I shared with you that my daughter is not motivated to use Braille -- persistence is key. We want to persevere. We want to model Braille, sitting beside them using Braille together. Keeping that Braille environment very rich with Braille. But what other things can we do, ladies, to help with that motivation? 

>>Melissa: This is Melissa. I would say first and foremost just incredibly high interest to the child reading. And this is especially true for those kids that maybe lost vision later in their school careers and are maybe fourth, fifth, sixth grade and are all of a sudden finding themselves not really able to easily use print. And really need to learn Braille. They're not going to want to read go to the -- I don't know -- store. Spot will run. Yes, I understand to a certain extent that's kind of where they are. But figuring out those stories that -- or writing your own stories or something where it's a plot or it's something that's really motivation to them, they really love, I don't know, NASCAR or American Girl or some TV show. Whatever it is. Trying to do as much as possible with that topic or those topics so that they have that skin in the game and they really enjoy what they're trying to read. Short things can be helpful. I love the idea of magazines because magazine articles or short stories are sometimes motivating because it's not that you're trying to read a whole book, it's just that you're just getting through this three, four, five-page article. And then I would say too the earlier you can have technology be part of the mix -- what are their friends doing? Are their friends e-mailing each other? Are their friends texting each other? Get that Braille display hooked up to their cell phone or computer. Show them that they can use it to text. They can use it to e-mail. They can use it to journal to write their own thoughts or their own poetry, whatever it is. To really make it something that they might want to do anyway. And that they actually see, oh. I mean, this is sort of bad but, oh, the lights are off. I can still text and my mom doesn't even have to know because my screen can be totally black and I can just have my Braille display under the covers and I can development services I can be texting. Wow, that's fun. 

>>Julie: Whatever is motivating. 

>>Melissa: I understand because I have two girls who aren't super motivated by Braille either and it wasn't until my husband and I, during the pandemic, took it into our own hands and said, okay, girls, what else are we going to do? A half an hour a day you're going to read out loud to us and we're going to get you -- we're going to make you into true Braille readers. And, you know, they don't use the code as often as I'd like, but at least they know it and I'm just hoping that at some point those seeds are going to be planted and they're going to realize, oh, that's why mom and dad pushed so hard. 

>>Julie: And that's that perseverance piece. Good for you. I did want to touch on, so everybody who is watching can know this. You were suggesting books that were interesting to the child that maybe when they're at that lower reading level. There is something called high-low books. You can Google it online. It is very high interest for older readers with the language that is a little bit lower so that they keep their interest and they're able to read everything that's in the book. That's a very good resource. And we are running out of time. It is 3:50 so let's hop over -- unless somebody is burning to say something else about this. 

>>Neva: I just wanted to add one thing. Practical uses like playing games that are in Braille. 

>>Melissa: Really good idea. 

>>Neva: And playing with the family when, you know, you can't tell the blue from the green on the Uno cards and you keep laying down a green and now everybody knows you have a green 6, can be real motivating to not play the wrong card and let people know what you have in your hand. Also practical uses like making presentations in class. It's no fun to stand up in a class and hold a piece of paper in front of your class like this and try to make a presentation. If you can read your outline in Braille, not verbatim, but at least make a presentation. It can make some of those things that those of us who are low vision dread doing, like reading out loud and making presentations. 

>>Melissa: And just going back to Angela, writing notes back and forth to friends. Teaching a friend the code or having them have a Braille pen pal can be super motivational. 

>>Angela: One more thing on this topic. We can't underestimate the power of blind peers and mentors. Especially I think with blind mentors, if you find people who have a similar experience where they hated Braille when they were younger but now they're a Braille reader and they know how important it is and why it's important. I think having that outlet for them. I mean, especially for older students, they need an outlet to be able to say this sucks sometimes. And I think to have somebody who's gone through a similar life experience as them is really helpful in that way because they can say, yeah, it might not be great right now but let me tell you if you put the work and time in, what can happen. 

>>Julie: Those are very good points. Last question: Given the landscape of the field, how do we ensure that students receive the instruction necessary to achieve optimal literacy development? 

>>Melissa: Melissa. I would say the biggest thing to me is making sure that students are, as much as possible, that the teacher that they have who's teaching them the Braille code, pushes into the actual classroom -- especially if they're little -- where everybody else is learning to read. Because it doesn't matter whether you're reading and figuring out that ST says sta. In print or Braille it matters that you get that instruction and that practice. And there's really no reason why kids, especially young children, should not be taught Braille right alongside their peers who happen to read print. And I just can't say that enough. The child should not just be pulled out. Now, they might need some pull out for various reasons. I'm not saying you never pull out a child. But I am saying the classroom teacher is really the teacher who knows how to teach reading. The teacher of blind students might not know as much about teaching reading. And so that's so important. And I understand if a child is older and learning Braille that might look different. But as soon as possible, having Braille pushed into their everyday -- even if they're not able to read everything, so they really see that correlation between this is what it can do for me and this is where I'll eventually get, is so critical. 

>>Neva: This is Neva. I think it's so important that teachers of students with visual impairments, the parents, the child themselves realize what is possible with Braille that for a partially-sighted student is not possible, gives them the opportunity to know what they can achieve if they have that tool in their toolbox. Because without that knowledge, they won't see a reason to put the time or the effort into learning Braille. And just to say Braille is literacy, literacy in Braille is important is fine. But until you understand what that impact is on your life, it's not going to be real. 

>>Julie: Angela, final thoughts? 

>>Angela: Yes. I think all of that and I think because in the landscape we have now with where we are so many teachers turning over in even the Gen Ed classrooms, that making sure that we as TSVIs also have some knowledge of literacy at position so that when that, you know, fresh out of college teaching certification is teaching ELA -- let's hope they wouldn't be but sometimes they are. We can support that blind student. Just making sure we're constantly collaborating with our team for the benefit of the student.