>> Kate Borg: We're so excited to have Dr. Cindy Bachofer with us. She is one of our outreach team members and weÕre just excited for this presentation. So IÕm going to turn the time over to Cindy. >> Cindy: Hello. Thank you, everyone, for choosing to attend this session. IÕm going say mostly on the slides rather than flipping back and forth between the face. So I think sometimes seeing the content is as helpful as hearing it. IÕm focusing today on -- I can see more with my optical devices and a look at both an overview of magnifiers foreseeing things up close and monoculars or telescopes, foreseeing things further away. And I know with everyone who is attending, itÕs a mix of those who are very new to working with students on devices and those who have done this for a long time. So I tried to pull the principles that I thought had meant the most for 20 years IÕve been able to focus on working with students with low vision and as somebody who -- I was born with ROP, so grew up with low vision, but I did not have real useful optical devices until I was in my 20Õs. So for me, I always say itÕs both personal and professional. I am the Low Vision Consultant at TSBVI, and I work -- my work primarily focuses on students with low vision and that can include that self-identity as somebody with low vision. There are psychosocial needs or use of tools. I do trainings in outreach and select classes in short term programs. And I used to -- I focused so much on developing the skill of using an optical device with students and it took me some time to recognize itÕs far more about the attitude in their head about using something that makes them stand out. a tool that seems not very appealing. And I know with students a lot of our discussion -- and towards the end IÕm going to talk more about that resistance of using devices, the road blocks students put up and some ways that we can get around that. Except for our immediate team who is helping to monitor this, IÕm good to hear questions during and not just me talk, talk, talk, but what are your concerns on this. So I know this is an overview of the presentation. IÕm first going to look at optical devices in what we now know in our 21st century, it is a screen-rich world. And that has kind of displaced devices, but I still think -- and thatÕs what IÕll focus on -- there is place for them in the studentÕs skill set. and then more the foundation of what are they, who uses, why do we use -- so itÕs the tool, the user, and the benefits that come from it. Kind of the foundation of devices. a quick look at instruction -- just what are the quick techniques that we need to develop to be -- to get the most out of a magnifier Orr a telescope. And then consideration of the roadblocks and solutions to those roadblocks. So when we -- I have up on this vision tools of today. Happens to be a picture of Jordi from star track, but that wearable vision which is becoming much more present. There are multiple companies out there that have developed that, whether itÕs something like iris vision or new eyes, where itÕs as if Accumulated Unexpended Fund mounted telescope you are wearing or something like artificial intelligence use, where that information is given through glasses frames that you wear. Students are very aware of those. They see the headlines. They hear it. Families talk about it. ItÕs becoming more available, but the real tool -- the one that is everywhere is that smart screen for students probably their Smartphone. Because the camera is in it, this e can use it as a near tool like a magnifier or distance. Take a picture and zoom in. That tool has been incredible. I know so many people with low vision who say thatÕs the only thing I use. ThatÕs my device. I want to point out it is a tool. I used to do the debate with students on whether it worked for them. It does work for them. But it is not the most effective tool they can use. And some problems with the screen view that I just want students to recognize, when youÕre constantly using that camera -- and say IÕm downtown and IÕm trying to find a new location and IÕve got my GPS running, and IÕm trying to pull in signs -- the battery is going to run down really quickly. It sucks that battery. So where is my additional tool? Where is my backup? There are limits on expanding the picture. So if I zoom, zoom, zoom, itÕs going to over pixelate. Especially with outdoors, the glare on the screen can make it really difficult to identify what IÕm trying to read there. and then the concern with if a student is constantly using that screen for, say, near work, because those tasks are much more common than distance, there is concern with either eye strain or even interrupting those sleep cycles that as much time as students spend on screens. and the final point is the no phone zone -- that is becoming much more common at either school or work. Add students can call me -- yeah, but itÕs my access tool, I have to have it. It will separate you and I think -- it can become such a distractor for students with what else is on the phone screen. or their tablet. So I think those are problems just that itÕs worth recognizing the limitations and seeing items through that screen, itÕs a camera. It is not a lens, an optical device lens that is meant for viewing. but I recognize with students it is a tool that can be useful. And when I was kind of looking for talking about that, the phone, itÕs the only thing I use as my access tool -- I came across this. I have an image of a toolbox on the slide here and there is a thing called the law of the instrument. And itÕs if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. And itÕs the reference to over-reliance on one tool for all tasks. and I thought this was -- it phrased it perfectly for why we should have multiple tools in the toolbox, and thatÕs one thing I just stress with students. So my next slide here, it comments on starter tools, and weÕve got a dome thatÕs very familiar. The thing is durable. Students adjust to it very quickly, and we have one of the short Galileon 2x telescopes with 3 and 4-year-olds, those are great starter tools. It introduces the student to if something -- if I make it bigger, itÕs easier for me to see. ThatÕs all my tool does. ThatÕs great. Those are starter tools. but as tasks become more complex for students, I think we need to increase the sophistication of those tools. So in my dissertation, I focused on long-term use of devices. So in our clinics in preact [INDISCERNIBLE], we had prescribed students starting with a dome. And if we donÕt get the reevaluation for that student in a low vision exam, I talked with multiple 18 and 20ys who were still using the dome. And I think there are the importance of upgrading your tools. We all do that in our technology, and I think itÕs just as important in devices. >> Kate Borg: Cindy, this is Kate. We had a question. So on the slide before, what is the name of the magnifier that you were showing? >> Cindy: This slide? >> Kate Borg: Yes. >> Cindy: ItÕs a dome. I typically know it as the dome. Multiple companies make them. And itÕs a -- what word do I want -- it has to sit flat on the page. So youÕre moving it across the page. And thatÕs great for quick, young students doing a quick search, but for long-term, sustained reading, it slows down the student. I got on this next slide kind of a sample of tools. On the upper left itÕs a rectangular lens, so you can get hopefully those only come in 3x, 3.5x power, so itÕs a lower power, but youÕre seeing more letters in that screen. It has batteries for turning a light on if a student likes that. The one below that is what I think of that grab it and go. It is a pocket magnifier, round lens, and I have them in my kitchen drawer, in my bag, itÕs just a grab it quick tool. the telescope on the upper right is -- the barrel, the round type where probably the most familiar, but the one below that is a -- name even shows on it -- a Carson. A lever that if a student doesnÕt have as much finger control, itÕs easier to press -- change the focus in that lever than turning the barrel. and the one thing when we used to do the low vision tools and strategies weekends, students would come in from across the state and so often -- because we had a range of devices out there for them just to recognize, and their comment was I had no idea there were so many different types. Because they most often get presented with a dome and a telescope. And there are different styles. And I want students to recognize they can become -- they can educate themselves on these. Become more savvy consumers of them. So this next slide I have a why? And a who, big bubbles and the why of why would I use an optical device? And everybody says thatÕs obvious, to see the target information that you want. And if you think through your day from beginning to end, all the things not just for information base, but for enrichment, for enjoyment of information, all the things that are valuable to see. It enriches my life. We could do a whole hour on whatÕs meaningful around us to see. And I want students to have access to that and find their confidence and their comfort level in accessing that. and then who can use an optical device? And I -- my short answer is any student who recognizes the benefit of magnification. Most often thatÕs what these tools do. If I make it bigger, itÕs better. ItÕs easier for me to see. And IÕve got -- on this skills to access, if we think of the microwave, most of us -- we donÕt even read the buttons anymore. We have it memorized. But I recently moved and have a new microwave in my home and I had to study -- I took my magnifier to that microwave panel to learn those buttons. if I can do that, then I can transfer that to a work skill, and I have a picture of a copier where there is tiny print on those copier buttons. So I am getting to know how I can function independently by seeing the information I want to see. and then for telescopes, the bottom two pictures is a wrestling match. If I can take my telescope into the gym and watch a wrestling match, then I can be hanging out with friends downtown and the last picture is watching street dancers. So itÕs not just IÕm hearing my friends talk about it, I am seeing what moves that person is making. And I recognize with students -- because in the direction we have gone in the classroom -- and I think itÕs a good direction overall, we have some really high tech equipment. We have the join me app where the iPad is at my desk and I can see whatÕs on the board. for the most part IÕm not needing to use my telescope as much in the classroom, but itÕs the ECC areas, the expanded core where itÕs am I independent by seeing things in the kitchen that I need to? in the grocery store, when IÕm out in the community, I think the use of optical devices has come out of the classroom and become much more widespread to all of the other environments. And I think thatÕs the generalizing this, to take it throughout my day is the critical point. if a student here has access to what is meaningful and one of our students, not on grade level, the O&M staff shared with me that he has done so well, adjusted so quickly to his telescope and heÕs looking at the stoplight -- because heÕs gauging when itÕs safe for me to cross and then on the right heÕs on our campus looking across the green and up to students against the building. And itÕs what he wants to see. ItÕs whatÕs meaningful to him. And I think too often the students who are not on grade level but could benefit from these devices, itÕs important in their life. ItÕs enriching for them. and IÕve got a slide up here that motivation is the top word. And thatÕs what I had -- it took me longer to recognize itÕs not just that I know how to use it, itÕs that I know why itÕs important to use it. I have the motivation. And itÕs building that rapport with a student to get to know them enough to figure out what are the hooks for this student. WhatÕs interesting? WhatÕs engaging to them? When I think about my tools, looking at math problems or my credit cart statement with the magnifier, not nearly as interesting as, say, examining somebody who has a cool piece of jewelry on. ThatÕs more engaging. Or that IÕm getting nutritional information for myself off the menu. What motivates me to want to use a tool? So itÕs those high expectations of this is good work and it matters. High interest for the student, and then high success with I make it easy at the beginning. the targets are bigger or weÕre closer to the target or making it easier to see. and then with the student who I can get that engagement going, letÕs make a list of what do you like to look at. And this could be even the list without devices, because for so many of our students, if they bring the information up close, thatÕs my comfort zone. ThatÕs where I identify whatÕs important for me to see. Now, if I take a magnifier to it, how much more detail do I get? And IÕll have some pictures further on that show some of our students looking at a range of items. the same with the telescope. If IÕm hearing a dog across the street, if itÕs a neighborhood IÕm not as familiar with, I want to know what kind of dog it is. And I think now that weÕre still doing remote instruction and students -- our days just arenÕt as filled with getting out and about, that finding this time to practice building those devices skills and figuring out -- giving the time for what is it that interests me? and this is kind of -- weÕre close to in the middle. IÕve kind of set up the foundation and IÕm wondering if any particular questions have come in that we can make it a little more interactive. >> Kate Borg: Cindy, this is Kate. A couple of questions. So Michelle asks are optical devices beneficial for students with CVI? >> Cindy: Yes, in a different way. Because the device blocks out distracting information. Like if you think of the magnifier, it gives a frame that pulls my -- it brings my attention in to that one spot rather than the distracting information. and the same with telescopes, because if you bring that telescope up to your eye, it blocks out all that side information. So I think itÕs not as much the magnification thatÕs the benefit, itÕs the occluding. ItÕs blocking out distracting information. >> Kate Borg: Charlene says I completely agree. It reduces complexity. And then she also asks -- and this went out to the group but getting your opinion, too -- what do people think about the envision program? >> Cindy: and envision -- is that the APH product? >> Kate Borg: I think so. I think thatÕs what they are talking about. >> Cindy: ItÕs been awhile since IÕve looked at that. If I remember, the kit of tools that I think it helps students recognize that there is a range and they have a subject here to stay updated on. And I think they have some good principles in that program of how you introduce the skills. Like what does it mean to localize? So if I see a flag outside. ItÕs got a bold color but I canÕt tell what the emblem is on it, IÕm going to find it with my eyes first, okay? I know that itÕs to the right of the red brick building. And then I can put the telescope up to my eye and go up that flagpole and find that target. IÕve spotted it threw the telescope. So I think it sets up the skills and I always want students to know those words like scan and trace and fixate. They are experts -- becoming the experts in using this tool. So I think itÕs important to know the terms that show your expertise. Even with the telescope, knowing that there is the ocular sense that goes close to my eye, and the objective lens thatÕs out towards the object. I think it shows your knowledge base on this. >> Kate Borg: One more question thatÕs come in. Michelle asks: Do optical devices need to be prescribed? >> Cindy: Yes, I think if we bypass -- and one of the links that is going to be in the chat, Dr. Kelly Lusk and I wrote a position paper for AER, and itÕs the importance of making sure that there is a means for a student to meet with a doctor on prescribing these. and I know that is a whole hour in itself of we donÕt have access, there are multiple barriers to getting there, so we work on breaking down those barriers. Because none of us like it when a doctor prescribes, oh, this student needs to be on Braille. They bypass the education piece on that. We bring expertise. I donÕt want to do the same thing and you feel like an adex kid to me. You feel like an adex telescope -- youÕd like it. I think thatÕs one I most often see get handed out because they are pretty affordable. And that 8x is a lot of magnification, but if a student doesnÕt need that much magnification, they are having to work too hard with that high power to get the information they want. A 6x, even that two bump down will make them more efficient. and I think there is -- in that position paper on prescribing optical devices, I think it gives some really good talking points with administrators on why this is critical. Because when a student gets frustrated with a mismatched tool, it takes a long time to get their willingness back on. Now youÕve been prescribed devices, letÕs give this a go again because they have a very negative taste for them. >> Kate Borg: So Shawn asks a follow-up to that. How often, Cindy, do you suggest students are reevaluated by a low vision specialist to identify possible new devices? >> Cindy: the standard that we say is three years and thatÕs because about every three years in education -- while the student is in school, there is big changes. So if IÕm a first grader, getting prescribed, and then IÕm a fourth or fifth grader, and they are moving up into where things are getting much faster in the classroom. And then an eighth or ninth grader transitioning to high school. The other answer to that would be any time if there is change in vision or significant change in tasks or interests for a student. ItÕs important to -- where you are collaborating with that doctor. And I think that is such a key point of weÕre building relationship with these low vision specialists, where we come at this with two sets of knowledge and expertise and itÕs that teamwork. >> Kate Borg: and that is it for now. >> Cindy: Okay. Great questions. Thank you. My nuts and bolts -- weÕre now kind of getting into the how do we use devices. And if you have access right now for anyone who is on the Zoom meeting, a magnifier or a telescope. I have kind of like letÕs test it. Now you try it and see what happens. So IÕve got a slide, the rule on shape and size. And IÕve got two magnifiers at the top. One is a big 3x, big round lens. And the one to the right of that is probably an 8 or 9x. Pretty high powered for a magnifier. That is definitely only for spotting. And itÕs got a tiny -- just bigger than your thumb -- a thumb and a half size. So with magnifiers, the bigger the lens, itÕs lower powered. ThatÕs the trick of optics. to have that big of a lens is going to be a low power. Smaller lens is higher power. And I think the reverse then with the telescope in that the shorter telescope is lower power. IÕve got a 4x on the left side here. the taller, bigger, chunkier telescopes -- this one on the right is probably an 8 or a 10x. So as the taller it gets, the higher the power. And you are say 8 times closer, ten times closer. And if IÕm looking for information through that high powered one, looking out on a field or a downtown street, I have to do a lot more slow scanning because moving too fast while IÕm looking through that -- students can get kind of a seasick feeling. If youÕre testing it, move that quickly. So itÕs building that tolerance for knowing how I can follow something. So my next slide, matching the user to the device. And I always think kind of there is three: Knowing the power, knowing what distance will work because it is not all distances with one scope. Because they are low tech, there is kind of a finite distance that they can get to pull your information in, and then the size of the target. I can be a, say, a passenger in a vehicle and looking at a sign up the road and knowing -- because I am an experienced user, no, itÕs too far away. That print is too small. So I have a sense in my head of what I can -- with my tool what information I can grab on to. So with a magnifier f we think whatÕs the power? I think itÕs important for students to know those specifics. To know their acuity. I have a 3x magnifier, and that translates to 12diofters. And a lot of times magnifiers will have the diopter and you divide by four to get my power. ItÕs magnifying it three times. with the telescope, for example, I have a 6x, whatÕs the 16 mean? That objective lens, that lens thatÕs further away from the eye, thatÕs 16 millimeters across. And I have a 9 field. A 4x, lower powered, has a 12 field. Slightly larger, and you look at -- thatÕs a small lens. ThatÕs maybe a quarter. You could put a quarter inside there. 3s matters. So I want the lowest power possible for the student to access the information because they have more field. ItÕs easier to orient to finding a target out there because I have more information. the concepts of magnification that the relationship between the device lens and the field of view is wider field, easier to use, more comfortable to look through because IÕm not as close. and then with the magnifier, I call it the E-L-M. IÕll sometimes have students take a magnifier and they put it right up against their eye and look at that near target. or itÕs flat on the page, to give that magnifier power, there needs to be space between the eye and the lens, and the lens and the material thatÕs being looked at. ItÕs finding that spot where it becomes clear. and I oftentimes -- I want students to experiment. Play with it. See what happens. Just test it out more than play with it. and then the decision of more light or less light. Magnifiers that you have the option of a battery in it, illuminated where you can put light on the target or not. Some students want the light, some donÕt, and with telescopes, some of them like an 8x30 or a 10x30, 30-millimeter across lens, more light is coming in. And for some students, that can be really helpful. They tend to be a heavier, chunk Ier device, but I often enough have had students just -- (sigh) ahhh, the relax of, yes, no I can see the thing more clearly, more easily. So IÕve got two students here with magnifiers. WeÕll focus on that for a minute or two. The student is reading the cooking directions on a microwaveable lunch, and then a student looking at a can of frozen juice for, okay, how much water am I putting in. And that independence of I can do this for myself because IÕm getting the information. and so many times parents, they are just used to -- thatÕs what I do for my child. I want things to be easier for them; but I think there is the comparative is I want them to be independent is building that skill. WeÕve got -- again, with magnifiers, like looking at the remote control, the magnifier thatÕs mentioned there, not that IÕm promoting a particular company, but Esche nbok designed one that is as flat as a credit card and a pull out lens and students have felt comfortable with that because it is so slick and inconspicuous, and to me thatÕs a possible tough factor. if a student is reading the dryer dials on a dryer, and again, itÕs that ECC skill of getting a hold of that information myself. >> Kate Borg: Cindy, just a couple of questions came in. So on the pictures, Charlene asks, are all these magnifiers prescribed for the kids? >> Cindy: No. Most of these pictures come from explore it weekends, our tools and strategies. We have the studentÕs vision info, and with my certified low vision therapist certification that I have, I can do a close match. Some of the students do come in having had a low vision exam. IÕll say not the majority. So when I do have that information on the student, absolutely, thatÕs the one we go with. But these are explore it weekends, where try a range of tools and I want you to figure out how when itÕs 2 magnified, that gets frustrating, and the students who -- because those were both lower powered tools, they had stronger acuity. Their vision was -- they were definitely closer to typical print readers. >> Kate Borg: Okay, thanks. >> Cindy: So a quick four points with the magnifiers. I call it finding that sweet spot of focus where itÕs -- remember the E-L-M, distance in between eye and the lens and the lens and the material, because I want a student to go back and forth with in and out of focus. and then stabilizing your hand so I canÕt keep my hand up off the page and moving that magnifier across the line. After a minute or two, IÕm going to get shaky. So I have -- because IÕll use that rectangular lens to read a page or two. If I do more than that, IÕm going to put on high add or high plus glasses, which is a different presentation. So I want to either the base of the handwrite below my pinkie or IÕll turn my hand and the base of where my thumb meets the hand and hold the magnifier there and just move across the line. So that IÕm steady. I donÕt have that shakiness. Sometimes it helps to use just a strip of colored paper as a line guide, or a sticky note, if IÕm say on my credit card statement and I need to go back to what line I was on, those can be helpful to mark the spot. and I want to build stamina when a student is adjusting to using a magnifier, specific tasks, daily practice, where we have an agreement. Yep, IÕm going to do my math work -- sometimes because there is more white space with math work, it can be less complex, or every day in the kitchen, reading a recipe. But a specific task where IÕm getting more adjustment, comfort level with using that. and then some students really like keeping a record when they are spotting time. I grab that information. Or with reading, and am I getting quicker with being able to move over more text. and then I just got -- with you testing it out, how are you doing? Is it working? And thinking of that range of targets that we could use. So IÕm going to switch to telescopes and, again, kind of the same parallel of information. IÕve got two pictures here. We had taken students out to a dinosaur park. What do I want to say -- replicas of dinosaurs and the bran tow Sauer us that had the super tall neck, they actually have details on the face of that dinosaur model, and we have a student looking there. Another one is pioneer farms that we have a picture of a student -- because chickens are fascinating. Anybody I know who has chickens loves watching them. And because they tend not to be that fast, you can follow that chicken. Because kids like animals typically, and itÕs examining the face and the movements of that animal. ItÕs just an example of outside of the classroom, out and about, where these tools can be meaningful. We have a picture on the left here -- was actually one of our on the road weekends where students are at a nature center all lined up along the rail and they heard something. WeÕre probably two to three stories up and there is a wide field that they -- what was that? And they all go to the rail. And itÕs just I want to know. I donÕt want to miss whatÕs out there. and then the second picture on this page, we had taken students to a grocery store, and it had a very Smelley fish market and the students -- there is a boy examining a tank of -- I donÕt know if they were crawfish maybe. Really smelly. It was ooooh, I donÕt want to lean my head into that. So heÕs doing what we call intermediate or middle distance focus. So with the telescope, we most often think of things as far away, but if you experiment and make -- we call it opening the telescope where youÕre making it longer, some thatÕs say 12 to 16-inches away, I always use the example of I love pastry, and in the pastry case if there is a line of people, I donÕt want to have to have a staff person behind the counter read that for me. I want to read what those pastries or what type of cheese is behind that. And because itÕs not within that five to six inches which is near work, this is middle distance, intermedia. That was one example where the students were really engaged on studying those crawfish. So thinking about strategies on the telescope. Finding an object first with your eyes, and always when I work with a beginner on this, bigger and bolder. Big item, bolder color. And then stabilizing your hand. So if IÕm working with a student, the hand thatÕs holding the telescope brings it up to my eye, and the other hand I cup under the elbow. and it sets a base. So it steadies the telescope, or I lean on a railing and steady my elbow. Or I lean against a pole and it helps my arm not to shake. So IÕm stabilizing that view. And then finding focus -- as I turn the barrel and I always do this with students is go past what you think is clear. Because a lot of students will settle for just -- yeah, itÕs clear enough. And we donÕt want just okay. We want great focus. So then I come back to clear. And IÕll always check -- IÕm going to see, depending on if there is a significant refractive error between you or your student, you may need to adjust, but it ought to be close. So I always triple check when a student sets focus to make sure, yes, and then have the student -- yeah, I can see it. No, tell me -- read for me what that information is. If youÕre looking at a dog across the street or a person walking, what color is the dogÕs -- on a morning weÕve got really beautiful chilly weather, the jacket. Or the dogÕs color of the leash. So set focus, and then stay fixed on an object and with telescopes a lot of times I think a TV -- viewing a TV Is a great example, because you can sit in a comfy spot and that TV screen isnÕt moving. I can get the whole screen, unless itÕs a 55 or 60-inch TV screen in the telescope. Or at least the target on the TV screen, and then I donÕt have to -- if there is movement on the TV screen, IÕm not having to move that far. So especially for young kids that learning to -- I donÕt have to be right up on the TV screen. Because eventually hanging out with your buddies, youÕre not three feet away from the screen. So getting comfortable with seeing it from a distance, and then following something. Whether itÕs slow moving traffic, again, I always use animals because they tend to be good targets for students. And then the same thing -- is it working? How are you doing? This last section looks at roadblocks to student use. And sometimes -- well, the top one is that the student -- they are very conscious of peer reactions, whether itÕs perceived or it is direct. and I call that term they feel a social cost. Socially, it makes me stick out. And I think a lot of that then is that inside the head, that feeling of I accept. I recognize an aspect of me is having low vision. It takes time to build that, but I am comfortable with that. And I am comfortable with the tools that I use. IÕm confident with them. So itÕs getting the student -- itÕs working on that feeling inside your head. Because IÕll have people stair at me when I use my telescope and, yes, when I was younger, it took time to build that -- hey, but IÕm getting the information I want and I have a quick response to people in the piewm. ItÕs called a telescope. It just makes things bigger, easier to see when I look through it. ThatÕs it. Nine seconds of explanation. I hear students make that -- but it doesnÕt equalize things. I canÕt see the information as fast as my buddies do. YouÕre right. And I donÕt like it when the low vision specialist or optometrist -- youÕre going to love this! I donÕt love my devices. They have limitations. But they help me get more of what I want. It doesnÕt equalize things, it just makes me independent in my tasks. It makes things more doable. the student may not get the benefit -- if they donÕt know what theyÕre missing, how do they know theyÕre missing it? And some of our students, that lack of visual curiosity, they are just not used to seeing beyond 15 or 20 feet. And so itÕs introducing that richness thatÕs out there. Lack of support -- and these last three -- or low expectations, limited accountability. If an adult or classmate is always -- IÕll do that for you. IÕll see that information four, I am not taking the personal responsibility to see that information for myself. and then training issues where we need consistency of training and recognizing that I need that motivation factor. I need to connect with my student on whatÕs motivating. >> Kate Borg: Cindy, we have about five minutes left, but a question came in and you may actually be answering it right now, but the question from Diana is what advice do you give to students who are too embarrassed to use their monocular because they feel like it looks like they are spying on people, especially address systems when out in the community? >> Cindy: with addresses, if I -- the calms that I travel with when I do lessons with the O&M-ers, itÕs if you know somebody is standing on their porch and youÕre say, looking at the cool hanging porch things, its oh waving and saying, hey, IÕm using my telescope. It lets me see information. It makes it bigger. Is that okay with you? in a classroom setting, where say in the cafeteria, if IÕm using my telescope, I would want -- in the classroom setting to talk with the whole group about this is what it does. I think out in the community, itÕs -- especially if you are traveling with somebody, if they comment to you, hey, somebody is looking, see if you can wave and say letÕs have a conversation it. Let me give you a really quick explanation. YouÕre right in that I think it can make people uncomfortable, but itÕs not going -- I want to then give a direct response to that. Any other questions, Kate? >> Kate Borg: Not at the moment. >> Cindy: Okay. So I think of the three words -- I have to build the skill to know how to use these tools. Otherwise, itÕs not going to be comfortable. ItÕs not going to be effective. So it takes time. I had somebody -- well, how long does it take for a student to learn to use a device? And IÕll respond how long does it take for a student to learn to read Braille? It depends. We do daily practice for Braille. and I think itÕs as important for devices. Because they are durable. They are versatile. They are affordable. And they can be quick grab it and go. So I want to build the skill with those. I want to build that internal confidence. I recognize that not everybody uses this kind of a tool, but I tell you, I am an expert in my tool. a really cool thing, if you have a broken telescope, take it apart. I keep a Ziploc baggie of the parts inside a telescope. So that a student sees the prisms inside of that barrel and this is a cool tool. And then building the habit. IÕm accountable for getting information and I am motivated. I want to see that information. I donÕt want to miss out. And this is a quick -- so my wish list that if I get a student who has developed the skill, working on that confidence, getting the habit started, okay, what are cool things I want to see? WhatÕs a new place I want to go and try my device? WhatÕs a challenge -- a device challenge or a big goal I want to set for becoming a more skilled, a more proficient device user? and then my last slide, down at UT campus, there is just a lot of cool things that the students like seeing. There is a photo here. So I thank you for joining this Zoom session. IÕve got my E-mail address and I am happy to have more discussion if particular questions come up that couldnÕt get answered here.