TRANSCRIPT - TSBVI Coffee Hour: Negotiation Skills for the Educational Professional - 3-3-22

>>Dr. McCormick: Thank you, Kaycee. Hello, everyone. I'm glad to have the opportunity to talk to you about negotiation and how it relates to the work we do as special educators every day. So for our time together this afternoon, we're going to answer four questions: Do we really negotiate in education? Second we'll look at what are the basic principles of negotiation. And, third, we'll seek to answer what are some outcomes of our negotiations and then, finally, we'll hopefully answer for you how do you use these principles as part of your practice. So what do you think? Do we negotiate in education? As the subtitle here says sometimes it's not so obvious. So in the chat, what I'd like for you to do is I'd like for you to brainstorm how you think negotiation and education are connected. I'll give you one minute to jot down your ideas and then I'll start reviewing them. How do you think negotiation and education are linked? Sara Kitchen said education is all about working together. Kaycee said obtaining buy-in for the things we know our students need. Absolutely. Kathrine says determining the core skills my student needs to learn. Sara Kitchen says how can anyone work together without negotiation? Yes. Emily Coleman says not everyone has shared beliefs and ideas so negotiation is necessary. Jane says as a professional in vision at the IEP table I negotiate on behalf of what the student needs. Yes, yes. And Lynnett says an itinerant negotiation happens all the time in collaboration efforts. Scheduling. When can this fit into a student's day and how can the student get to where learning is most impactful. Victoria says sometimes parents or students need to be negotiated into learning and participating in their own learning. Yes. That is very true, Victoria. Very true. All right. Well, it sounds like you already have a very strong idea of how these two are connected. Let's take a look at a few more examples. So some of you who are itinerant, you have already alluded to the fact that negotiation occurs just around student services. For example, when you will visit with a student can become a negotiation between yourself and the general education teacher. How to accommodate for a student's needs for an upcoming general education lesson. General education teacher may feel that we're offering too many scaffolds for the student's learning, whereas you see it from a very different perspective. How much service time will be provided to meet a student's needs. Often that is a negotiation in an IEP meeting. Asking for additional resources to support your work. I'm sure many of you out there have found yourself a time or two where you may have needed additional materials or supplies to do the things that you do. Perhaps you've even had to advocate for an additional position to assist you and your department. Those are all good examples of negotiation. And then, as Kaycee stated in the chat, creating buy-in when we're implementing instructional strategies with a student often does take the form of a negotiation. So really we as special educators, in a sense, we're negotiating every day. Almost every interaction might be seen as a negotiation. So how exactly do we go about negotiating? So there are a few ABCs when it comes to negotiating. Step one is to acquire information. Step two is to build value. And then the final step is to claim value. And so we're going to explore these ABCs in the context of asking a teacher to wear a DM unit for a student. Raise your hand our put in the chat if you've had that experience before. And perhaps it might not be a DM unit. It might be any accommodation. I'm sure many of you have had that experience, yes? Yep. I'm seeing a few yeses in the chat. All right. So step one, we have to acquire information. So the very first thing that we want to do is we want to spend some time gathering information, asking questions of the other person. What is it that the person wants with regards to the issue? For example, if you're negotiating on wearing a DM unit, what does the other person believe about the DM unit? How does that person feel about the student? About the equipment? Does this person think that wearing the unit will help the student? Or does this person believe that wearing the DM unit will create some sort of undue burden on herself? It helps when we're in the acquiring information stage to offer some information in the beginning when negotiating but you want to be careful. You don't want to share your entire plan with the other person. So share just enough to encourage reciprocity. In other words, give a little to get a lot. If going along with this example of the DM unit you may say something like, you know, oh, I remember when I was first asked to wear a DM unit and at first I was really nervous. I didn't want to have to remember to turn it on and off. That might be enough to allow the person to feel comfortable and to give you additional details about what she is thinking and feeling. The second step is to build value. So in order to build value, you have to share information and you have to, again, ask good questions. You have to place all of your assumptions aside and act as a good detective. So when you build value with someone in negotiation, you're moving further away from competition and closer towards cooperation. So a few tips to make building value easier. First, you want to think of how you can make an option that bundles several issues together. We don't want to try to negotiate each issue one by one. Second, we want to try to come up with different options. So each option should be of equal value to you as the negotiator, meaning that you're not losing with any of these options. And, finally, you want to share these options at the same time. So you're letting the person decide what she wants. So rather than negotiate from a position, meaning the DM unit. I need you to wear this DM unit. We're now going to explore the other person's interests and priorities and so here on the slide you can see that an interest is the underlying need or the reason that the person has for an issue. And so going along with our example, in our scenario, the teacher says I need to wear this device so I can stay in compliance. I know that. We also need to know what her priorities are with regards to those issues. So in this case she may tell you I am more concerned about knowing how to use the device than where to store the device. So I think Ted Lasso -- any Ted Lasso fans here? Show me in the chat. We -- he sums it up -- Emily, yes! I think Ted Lasso just sums it up so well what we need to be doing when we build value. So let's take a look at this quick video. [ Video ] 

THIS VIDEO CAN BE FOUND AT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x0PzUoJS-U

>>What do I need to win? 

>>Two triple 20s. 

>>Good luck. 

>>Rupert, guys have underestimated me my entire life and it used to bother me but one day I was driving my little boy to school and I saw this quote by Walt Whitman painted on the wall there. It said be curious, not judgmental. I like that. So I get back in my car and I'm driving to work and all of a sudden it hits me. All them fellas that used to belittle me, not a single one of them were curious. You know, they thought they had everything all figured out and so they judged everything and they judged everyone. And I realized that they were underestimating me had nothing to do with me. If they were curious, they would ask questions. Questions like have you played a lot of darts, Ted? 

>>Whoa! 

>>Which I would have answered, yes, sir. Every Sunday afternoon at a sports bar with my father from age 10 until I was 16 when he passed away. Barbecue sauce. [ Cheering ] 

>>Good game, Rupert. 

>>Dr. McCormick: Oh, I love that scene. So as Ted says, be curious, not judgmental. And for those that are wondering, did Walt Whitman really say that quote? No, no he did not. But don't let that stop you from remembering that quote as part of your practice when you are building value as part of your negotiations. So after you have been curious, not judgmental, you have a good understanding of what the person's interests are with regards to a particular position. It's time now to claim value. That means we're going to slice this pie in our favor. So we're getting close to finalizing this deal with the teacher so that she will wear the DM unit and in a traditional negotiation this is the time when a business professional would make his or her initial monetary offer. But in our world, it's typically where we make our first pitch. So you might say something like, so, from what I'm hearing you have no problem wearing the DM unit so as long as I provide an initial training on the device, is that correct? And this first pitch is known as our aspiration point. It's what we're hoping for and it's what we're completely happy to say yes to. However, that might not go over really well so we need our reservation point, otherwise known as a BATNA, the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And this is what we would settle for. It's the minimum of what we're willing to say yes to. So in our scenario, you're BATNA might be that you're willing to not only do a training but you're also willing to model how to use the device for the teacher. So if the teacher were to counter, quote, unquote by saying, do you know what? Before I wear it, I really need to see it in action first. Then you could go to your BATNA and hopefully end on a good note. So, what are the outcomes of negotiations? Well, as the subtitle says, they really depend on you. There are five outcomes in any negotiation. The first one being win/lose. And this occurs when you have high interest in the issue but low relationship with the individual that you're negotiating with. You end up having all your needs met while the other person walks away with nothing in return. There may be feelings of resentment on the other person's side for not having any of those needs met. Of course, the opposite of that is lose/win. Sometimes this happens because we have really high feelings of relationship with an individual and we sympathize with them and so we give in to them and they end up getting all of their needs met while we get nothing in return. You would think that compromise would be a nice way to go but in reality it isn't the best scenario because you end up giving up things, as does the other person, in order to reach a settlement. And so in a great negotiation, both of us walk away feeling as if we didn't give up anything in order to have a win-win. Win/lose, both of you dig in and you're unwilling to change your positions. So obviously, we are hoping for the win-win, right, where we're ultimately both very happy, as I stated earlier and we feel satisfied with our decision. Both of us feel that this relationship has become better as a result of what we've gone through. All right. It's time for the orange problem. I hope you're ready. We're going to watch another video and some questions that I'd like for you to consider are: What was Mary's goal? What was Lizzy's goal? What was the outcome of this orange conflict? And what do you think Mary and Lizzy did to achieve the outcome? Any questions before I share the video? All right. Let's go to our next video. [ Video ] 

THIS VIDEO CAN BE FOUND AT: https://youtu.be/CcW5A1c3-Fc

>>Video: This is Mary. And this is Lizzie. Mary and Lizzie are sisters. They get along just like any other sisters. Some days are better than others. Today is one of those others. Mary and Lizzie have been arguing over who would get the last orange they found in the kitchen. Mary demanded but Lizzie wouldn't give in. Lizzie tried to persuade Mary to concede the orange, but Mary was insistent on getting. Finally, the two girls took a knife and split the orange right down the middle. They each took half and stalked off. Mary squeezed her half of the orange, tossed the peel into the garbage, added a little sugar, and drank the orange juice. Lizzie peeled her half of the orange, threw out the fruit, and ground the peel down into little slivers which she added into the chocolate cake she was baking. There are many ways to discuss this story. One is from a bargaining perspective. Mary and Lizzie each wound up with half of their initial which might be measured as a gain of sorts, unless they are insufficient. From a communications perspective, Mary and Lizzie clearly failed to communicate with one another. From an interest based perspective, they specifically failed to clarify their interest to one another and perhaps to themselves. From an integrative perspective Mary and Lizzie divided the pie without seeking to expand it. Essentially, Mary and Lizzie engaged in a very human interaction and fell into a very human trap. We only know what we know, and we only see what we see. Looking at Mary and Lizzie dilemma, it's easy to ask, "How were they to cope given that they only had one orange?" How many oranges did they really have though? Even now, you may say and probably do, "They had one." However, Mary and Lizzie actually had two oranges, an orange of peel and an orange of fruit. They could have each received an entire orange of satisfaction. The challenge is that it is very hard to look at something and see it for more than it appears to be. It is particularly challenging to do that when we are facing another person who we know seems to desire the same object. As we have all been in Lizzie's and Mary's position, we know just how hard a situation this is to overcome as a negotiator. Let's frame this as a challenge for our own future interactions.

>>Dr. McCormick: All right. So, in the chat, what was Mary's goal? Gretchen put orange juice. Allison, yes. Everyone is saying that she wanted orange juice. And what was Lizzie's goal? She wanted the zest, yes, she wanted the orange peel. And what was the outcome? Thinking of the five outcomes that we just went over, what was the outcome of their negotiation? Allison says waste. Emily says compromise. It's actually a compromise. It's not lose-lose because they both ended up eventually getting what they wanted but they could have gone about it a different way, right? So they compromised and so as he states in the video, they really didn't have one orange. They ended up having -- they really had two oranges and they needed to see the problem a little bit differently. How do you think Mary and Lizzie ended up in this outcome of compromise? Tell me a little bit in the chat of how you think their conversation went. Emily said they were not curious. Jill says there wasn't enough conversation. I would agree, Jill. Can you think of an example of what you might have heard them saying? I see Debra and Edgenie put I want. I saw someone say mine, mine and I need. Yes, yes. So were they being curious and not judgmental? Probably not, right? I like how Jane put this. They were not serious. They were self-seeking. Emily said as siblings I'm shocked that at compromised at all. Me too, Emily. I guess the video had to end on a somewhat good note. [Laughter] So let's take this a little bit deeper. Are positions and interests the same thing? What do you think? Edgenie put it was probably mom who cut the orange in half. Probably. She had had enough of their bickering. But let's talk about this first question in the chat now. Are positions and interests the same thing? So I'm seeing a lot of noes. Can someone tell me why they're not the same thing? Kimberly said one may have a power differential while interest could be based on lack of power. Okay. Well -- and Emily said you could have different positions and the same interests. Amanda said without discussing interests it may be easy to hold misinformed positions. Edgenie put positions tend to be the what while interests tend to be the "why." And, Edgenie, I think you're on the right track there. So in the video the position that both of them had -- they had the very same position. I want the orange or I need the orange. But their interests were very different. As you all have pointed out, one wanted the orange for juice and the other wanted the orange for the zest for a cake. And so there was a solution there but it was a missed opportunity because why? Which kind of takes us to our second question. Why is it important for people to communicate during conflict? Thinking of positions and interests now, why is it important for people to communicate during conflict? Amy says for better understanding. Understanding motivations. Yes, Jill. Discover each other's true interests. Kaycee said there could have been an easy solution but they didn't know what each other wanted. Emily said avoid snap judgments and assuming intent. Yolanda said to hear each other's goals. Yes, yes. And so that can be really hard. Can be really hard when stakes are high and emotions are high that we're going to slow down and do just what Ted told us to do earlier. We're going to be curious, not judgmental. We're going to put all that to the side and really try to be good detectives to figure out why somebody feels the way that they feel. Do people always communicate when they have a conflict? Why or why not? What do you think? Lynnett said no, people shut down. Debra said some walk away. Julianna said they may not have the skills to communicate. Kaycee said emotions can make it hard to think clearly. Jane says either fight or flight. I'm flight. Cyral says many people run away from conflict. So my hope is that after today, hopefully you can see conflict in a different way. Conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing. Conflict really can be a time for negotiation, right? Can be a time for when we're trying to figure out, okay, like I said several times already, I'm going to be a detective right now. I'm going to override my emotional reaction, that intuition gut-wrenching feeling in my stomach and I'm going to focus on discovering what this other person wants. What is it that is driving this other person to act or say the things that she or he is saying. And speaking from personal experience, it does require a lot of self-talk because you have to override your emotional reaction first, right? Sometimes it can get heated but if you can take that moment to say what I'm saying right now, you can get there. I'm curious. Did this scenario with the orange spark a connection for you? Did it remind you of a similar time in your life and, if so, what was the outcome? Chrissy said in one situation I ended up consulting with the school principal. Tell us more, Chrissy. What were you consulting about? Chrissy said the teacher was refusing to move a student with low vision in a wheelchair closer to the board because she would be, quote, in the way. What was the outcome of your negotiation or consultation with the principal, Chrissy? Oh, the principal ended up talking with the teacher. Awesome, awesome. Do you think though, Chrissy, that there was a way that you could have had that conversation directly with the teacher? Oh, Chrissy says I tried but the principal basically said she was a person who did not negotiate well. Well, I want to hope that after today, with these new tools in your tool kit, that maybe we can change that teacher around. I really do believe in my heart of hearts that there is no such person that isn't good at negotiating. It's about having one person at the table -- oh, she left that school year too. Okay, Chrissy, you can try with other teachers but my point being that no one is really bad at negotiating, they're bad at asking questions. And so I don't think that you could ever ask enough questions when you're at the table trying to help people buy into the services and supports or negotiating for materials and supplies, whatever it might be, that you find yourself having to use these skills for. Emily said earlier when thinking about student advocacy, we often think it's us against them but it's often the same interest, the students and different positions for reasons we don't know. Absolutely, Emily. Absolutely. So how do I use these principles of negotiation as part of my practice? So as I've stated earlier, how you feel about somebody can heavily influence your negotiations. So just a recap, if you happen to like the person you're interacting with and you feel sympathetic towards them, you might end up settleling for lose-win outcomes frequently. And can you right now think of a time when you overaccommodated someone and walked away feeling like you didn't really get what you wanted? Anyone ever felt that before? Julianna says yes. Thank you, Julianna. Did you feel satisfied with that outcome, Julianna? Kaycee, did you feel satisfied in that moment? Julianna said, no, because I didn't feel heard. Kaycee says no. Did you find that because you walked away it helped the student? Because you settled, it helped the student? No, it only helped the teacher. Thank you for being so brave, Kaycee. That's hard to admit. And I think everyone here can relate to that. So, on the other hand, if you don't like the person, you know this is going to be a tough cookie, you may end up going for a win-lose outcome, right? You don't care for the relationship. You're willing to push your position or your interests until you get your way. Can you think of a moment where that may have been the case for you? Anyone have any experience with that? Going all out until you get what you want? It's okay. There's no judgment here. Remember, we're all being curious, not judgmental. Debra said a lot of times. Shauna says yes. Sara Kitchen says when one loses it seems like everyone loses. I love that. Yes. I think all of us, just by nature of being human, have at one time or another, whether personally or professionally, we have all had a moment where we went all the way and we did not really consider the other person's feelings, especially when it comes to students, just like Debra put in the chat. You know, our students are our lives. We love them with all of our heart and we want the very best for them and so those emotions can tend to run high and make us push when we shouldn't push so hard. So while you got what you wanted, this really isn't a great outcome because, A, it's likely that you will have a more difficult time in the future negotiating with that person, right? And, B, you've probably damaged that relationship significantly because that other person walked away feeling unheard. So in order to -- the very first principle when we go into any negotiation is we really need to separate the relationship from the issue at hand. You can be as tough as you want on the issue but we should never be tough on the person. This principle helps you remember that the other person is really your partner, regardless of how you feel for them, they are your partner in supporting the student. So if you could just get what you wanted, you wouldn't really be negotiating, right? In the chat I saw a very -- there it is. Erin says I have an eighth grade student which requires 72 minutes each day of Braille instruction. After discussing scheduling options with the teachers and e-mailing them the agreed-upon rotating schedule, vision services 8:00 a.m. Monday, 9:00 a.m. Tuesday, 10:00 on Wednesday. One of the teachers walked in during Braille instruction and demanded the student return to her class immediately and that the schedule would not work for her. Long story short, I was forbidden to take the student out of any classes for Braille instruction. The school then determined to pull the student from life skills course and replace it with Braille instruction. I provided ECC information and research. Bottom line: They were not willing to hear or compromise. I definitely feel unheard in this situation. I also feel they did not discuss this with the student and he is crushed that they did this to him. Oh, Erin, that is a very tough, tough situation. In this case, I would definitely recommend bringing everybody together so that you could collectively hear all of the interests at one time. Was this conversation -- did this conversation primarily occur across e-mails? I'll just repeat the question real quick. He went two weeks without Braille instruction. That was the outcome of the meeting this past Thursday. Erin, was the conversation primarily held in e-mail? No, it was in person. Did you have a facilitator at the table? Somebody who remained neutral and facilitated the discussion? Yes, the special education director. Oh, Erin. Were many questions heard? So, in other words, did the special education director ask a lot of questions of everyone at the table so that we could get to know everyone's interests? While we wait for Erin -- oh, thank you, Erin. It says, yes, but the school staff focused on how long they had been teaching and how they had never been in a situation such as this before. Without having been there, I wonder how the conversation could -- I wonder how the outcome may have been different if more questions had been asked regarding their hesitancy, right, for the Braille instruction. In your opinion, Erin, do you think you walked away with a really good understanding of what their interests were? And I only say that because, yes, I think each one of us has frequently heard these comments before. Like I've been teaching for X number of years and this is the first time I've ever had to do XYZ. And I just have never had this happen to me before. But do you really feel that that is their interest, Erin? Do you feel like there might be more underlying all of that? I think what your story really highlights well, Erin, is that sometimes we can't just negotiate once, right? Sometimes we can't just have one meeting to get to the bottom of it. Erin says, yes, I do think that because they directly stated that core subjects are important. Life skills are not important and Braille instruction is not as important as the core courses. The interest there though, really, what I hear you quote, unquote saying in chat is the interest for them is the work that they do, right? The subtext to that is, you know, they're not saying it but the quote is I don't understand what you do. I don't understand why your work is important. Even though they may have said it in not so nice ways. That's really what they're saying. Help me understand why your work is important. And, yeah, I'm sure you have. I have no doubt, Erin, without having met you. I'm sure that you did do that. And sometimes going back to my first point, it takes multiple times of coming to the table, multiple times of showing and highlighting how the work that we do is valuable and before somebody has that lightbulb moment and says, oh, I get it. I get it. I really hope though that you keep trying, with the help of your special education director. I just got a ten-minute warning. Erin, forgive me. I'm going to move on to our second principle, which is that we negotiate based on interests, not positions. So we did see this principle in action with the two girls and the orange. The girls were negotiating based on the position of I want the orange? If they had negotiated based on interest they could have had a win-win outcome. The third principle is you want to create a solution to which you would say yes to. So going back to -- let's use Erin's example here. Sometimes you can't cooperate because all the persons involved see a problem and they all begin offering solutions. And if everyone is offering a solution to the same problem, then everyone is negotiating from positions and not interests. So in order to avoid this, you first want to consider all of the interests at hand. That means being empathetic, putting yourself in the other person's shoes, trying to understand what their interests are. And then create a solution yourself that has all of the conditions to which you would say yes to. So in Erin's situation , you know, it might be that rethinking that Braille schedule, right? Before having shared it with the team. Thinking about everyone's interests, asking them for their input. I don't know if you did that or not, Erin, forgive me if you did. But asking for everybody's input when would be a good time for them to have this Braille instruction and then coming up with a solution that meets the legal requirements of the IEP, assist the student, and is something that all of the general education teachers could work with. We could use a object calendar system for a student who is Deafblind. You may want to get started away so you ask questions like what does the calendar system have to have in order for you to feel comfortable using it every day? She might say stuff like it needs space in my classroom. I need a way to organize and store all of the objects. It needs to be portable so it can go from class to class to class. And I need for you to come and model it for me before I start. So that's a whole set of criteria, right, that this person has. And surprisingly there's a lot of options in how you can meet those criteria. So principle three really encourages your creativity. And then, finally, the fourth principle. You want to create different options from which to choose. So as some of you may have heard me say before during TSBVI Coffee Hours, there's a lot of research to support the idea of choice when asking people to implement things. Nobody really likes being told what to do so in thinking of our classroom teacher, who is being asked to implement a calendar system, knowing her criteria, again, helps you develop those choices. You can develop different solutions that all have her criteria in mind and all of which you would feel completely comfortable saying yes to. But together you can evaluate which of your solutions is the best one to meet the classroom teacher's needs and the classroom teacher walks away feeling like she had some real autonomy in the matter. So what questions can I answer for you, to the best of my ability, with the time that we have left? Jane said what strategies can I use to calm myself when in stressful meeting situations? Well, Jane, first I just want you to know, give yourself grace. It has taken me a long time myself, just speaking from my own personal experience, to remain calm when hearing certain comments or being in high-stakes negotiations with staff and colleagues. It can be difficult. First, just give yourself grace. You're learning. You're growing. You're going to get better at it. The second thing though I would add is, for lack of a better way to describe it, you have to view yourself from the balcony. When you feel yourself getting wrapped up in emotion, tell yourself mentally to go to the balcony of the theater that is the situation. You're going to watch yourself mentally from the outside, looking at you and the other person. And that will help you start thinking objectively about what needs to happen next. The third thing I would do while you're viewing yourself from the balcony is to start writing. There's something really powerful about writing and taking notes while you are listening to somebody. It lessens the emotional impact because now I'm listening for what you're really saying and I'm going to write it. That way I can comment on it. I can give myself time to process what you said, really think about the intent of what you mean, and then plan a response. So those would be my suggestions. Give yourself grace. It's okay if you maybe don't manage your face the right way or don't say something the right way. It's okay. You're growing. Second, when you feel yourself getting heated, go to the balcony, view the situation from the balcony, mentally. Third, start taking notes. Word for word of what you hear that person saying and start thinking about it in an objective way, rather than an emotional way. What other questions do y'all have? [ Laughter ] Shauna said that is one of the positives of wearing masks. You know, I would agree with Shawna. I will say, though, your eyes can still give it away, though. So be careful, manage your eyebrows. All the good things. What other questions do you have at the moment that I could help you with? What should you do when the person is in violation of the law? Well, first, I always like to assume personally for myself that a person may not actually know. So I want to confirm first they really don't know. That they're really not doing it intentionally so I would have a conversation with them one-on-one using tentative language. Because we don't want to attack anybody. We want to be curious. We don't want to be judgmental. But if I walked away from that conversation then feeling like, oh, this might be intentional. And I've tried other avenues of coaching and support to try to get the person on track and to help that individual, then I would go speak with my supervisor. But I always want to try to resolve these things colleague to colleague, right? As much as possible. And I always want to assume positive intent. Sharon. Sharon said stay curious, not furious. I like that! I like that. I'm sure Ted Lasso would like that too, Sharon. It's hard, right? Like, there's so many special education laws. So many. Oh, Chrissy says I'm thinking of a situation in which a teacher was using restraints on a blind student. I would definitely talk with that teacher and, again, be curious. Why did you think restraints were appropriate for this behavior? Are you trained in restraints? Does the student have a behavior intervention plan? What have you tried prior to this? You know, tell me a little bit about what led up to that moment. You know, just lots and lots of questions to unpack it. You know, we often -- I think everyone in this virtual room would agree that restraints are stressful for the student. They're also stressful for the adult who had to administer it. So that's important to keep in mind, right? There's a feeling, a negative feeling associated with having to do that for a student. So I would just recommend trying to keep that in mind as well when you talk with her.