TRANSCRIPT - Involving Dads - How to Encourage and Support Involvement by Dads Ð 11/4/24 >>Mark: My name is Mark Keith. I'm a research and training specialist with the Resource Materials and Technology Center for the Deaf/Hard of Hearing. We are in Florida. We provide services statewide in Florida. We're a state discretionary project through IDEA. My role, I work a lot with rural districts. I am also the team's parent person. I also am a parent myself of a young man who is deaf and has cerebral palsy. His name is Ian. As we go through the session today you'll hear me talk a lot about him so if I throw anybody under a bus, it will be my family. If you have any questions going forward, please go ahead and post it in the chat and I would as soon answer them as we go as opposed to waiting until the end. Truth is, I'm getting a little bit ordered and I may not remember what I said at the end of the presentation. Anyway, with that, let me go ahead and move forward. Like I said, I told you -- [ Audio frozen ] Deaf and hard of hearing. That's kind of our beginning slide but we're not going to worry about it too much. To begin with, I want to start the session off by having you guys watch a video. Please follow the directions and then I'm going to ask you to tell me in the chat the answer to the question that they ask you. Both questions. [ Video ] >>This is a test of selective attention. Count how many times the players wearing white pass the basketball. How many passes did you count? The correct answer is 15 passes. But did you see the gorilla? [ End of video ] >>Mark: So my big question out of this is how many of you saw the gorilla? Usually when I do this with a group, it's about half the people in the room. So if you're one of those ones who saw the gorilla, great. If you didn't see the gorilla, that's great too. It doesn't really matter. What matters is it tells us how you focus on a topic, a question, or an assignment and what kind of resources you devote to that. For the folks who did not see the gorilla, typically you guys are the ones who can so lock down on a topic and issue that you will exclude everything else out around you to focus on that task. The other guys, you all who did see the gorilla, you guys are the ones who can really kind of focus down but still be open to other things and be triggered by other things that may be happening around you. There's no right or wrong here. There's no good or bad. It's just how we pay attention. How we direct our attention on things. The reason I show you this -- as you know today's topic is involving dads. Any kind of family issue, including issues surrounding dads, often are very, very complex topics. My dad, my dad used to have an expression: Don't lose sight of the forest because of the trees. Don't get so focused on an individual group of trees that you miss the big picture that you're in. So that's the reason that I'm showing you this and that's the thing I want you to take away from this particular slide is that you're working with dads, don't lose sight of the big picture. Just kind of file it away. I also like the reaction to see what people -- anyways, we'll now move forward. Let's talk about dads. Big picture. First, lack of involvement by dads in the educational life of their children is a continuing and pervasive problem. I have been in this field for 20 years. I've been a parent for 33. This was a problem when we got into special education. When we got -- our first was first diagnosed with having some issues and we started the process, the early intervention process. As a professional for the last 20 years, I see it all the time. The dads typically a lot of times are not involved. It's pervasive and it continues and it doesn't seem to matter where you are. It can be in Florida, Texas, you can be in California, Montana, Iowa, it doesn't matter. The problem persists throughout. No demographic or any kind of other measure that really defines this either, so it's just something that exists everywhere. As you can see, and since I'm from Florida, the issue also exists in all parts of Florida. We've all been talking -- in terms of the parent world, this is a topic of discussion that has been going on for years. Everybody has been trying to figure out how to solve it. There hasn't been a really good solution and I think there's a lot of reasons for that. Anyway, we'll get into that. But look back at the meetings you guys have with families. In what percentage of those meetings is dad actually present in your IEP meetings or your IFSP meetings or early intervention events or general parent events or other activities? A lot of times they're not there. They're rare. I mean, even in the field as a professional, it's not unusual for me to be in a conference of 200 people and there may be two or three other men in the room. That will be it. We're like a sashsquatch. We're rare. Aren't these professionals just happy when dads show up? It shouldn't be that way but it is. We are thrilled when dad shows up. We're going to talk about why as we move forward and what things we can do. So why does it matter? First off, without participation by dads, 50% of the parent perspective and input is lost in the decision-making process. That's half, right? And we also have a different perspective often than mom does. I know my wife and I run into that all the time where we're looking at two different perspectives on things and it's trying to find the intersection of where things cross, where we actually meet on things. And that's where we use the tool bus and come to consensus. When dad isn't there, there's no second opinion, no other set of eyes, no other thoughts that may differ from the others in the group. And it's a problem. Why? This loss of input weakens the educational time. It reduces perspectives that can create ideas and open other potential areas of investigation. It increases the possibility that things are going to get missed and the things getting missed can often negatively impact the education for the child. It's not unusual -- think about when you have meetings with other groups and other people and you have different perspectives looking at an issue. It's not unusual for something to trigger something for you that's coming from somebody else who has a different perspective in something. And you go, there's a point here I wasn't thinking about. That happens with dads a lot. That happens when dads are participating. I've lost my mouse. There it is. It also has an impact on family dynamics. I have seen this happen way too many times dealing with families across Florida. One, communication issues. Inside the family if one party is making the decisions and one party is simply not there, you run across potential communication issues. Somebody thinks something is being done that may not be, somebody expects somebody else to show up, they don't show up, you know, all kind of potential risks, potential impacts, potential communication problems. Possible conflict. Tension, stress -- especially if you're the parent who is the one going to meetings and trying to make the decisions and the other person is not there. Yes, it's very easy for there to be conflict between the parties because you feel like you're the only one doing all the work and then the other party is going, well, why aren't you telling me what I need to know? Why aren't you there. Lack of consensus in family decisions concerning the child. Mom wants one thing. Dad wants something else but if they're not both involved, it's hard to find where that common ground is. You know, again, lack of involvement, hard to find a consensus. And it also creates trust issues. You know, again, why are you not there? Trust. You know, why are you not that concerned? Where are you? Why are you not here? I'll give you an example. Years ago I was doing a workshop. Do you know what? I'm going to hold off on that. I'm going to use it later. I want to explain it in a particular way, so I'm going to hold off. Lack of involvement by dads can have a negative ripple effect across all aspects of the child's life which can impact education and the child's future prospects for being life, college, and career ready. What happens today can ripple forward in the future and have a major impact on that child's life. You know, I'm sure you guys can tell me a whole bunch of other impacts that can occur other than this was here. I'm not going to ask you guys to plug into the chat right now, but bottom line, think in your head, each of you come up with ten things that can go wrong or ten negative impacts that can take place by not having that involvement. Now, I'd like you to watch this video. Another video. I like videos. [ Video ] >>It's just there's all this pressure, you know. And sometimes it feels like it's right up on me. And I can just feel it. Like, literally feel it in my head and it's relentless. And I don't know if it's going to stop. That's the thing that scares me the most is I don't know if it's ever going to stop. >>Yeah. You do have a nail in your head. >>It is not about the nail. >>Are you sure? Because, I mean, I bet if we got that out of there -- >>Stop trying to fix it. >>I'm not to fix it. >>You always do this. You always try to fix things when all I need you to do is just listen. >>I don't think that is what you need. You need to get the nail. >>See? You're not even listening now. >>I will listen. Fine. >>Sometimes it's like, there's this achy -- I don't know what it is. I'm not sleeping very well at all. My sweaters are snagged, all of them. >>That sounds really hard. >>It is. Thank you. Ow! >>Come on! >>Don't. [ End of video ] >>Mark: I love there video because I don't know about you guys, my wife and I have been together for 40 years. I have had this conversation time and time again and over the years I have looked at my wife and gone, okay. I don't know if I'm supposed to fix it in this conversation or just sit here and listen. Can you please tell me? My wife is an engineer by training so she is very science-oriented and very kind of ABCDEFG kind of person. But literally we have had, over the years we have gotten to the point if I didn't know, I would literally ask her because my first instinct and almost every guy I know, our first instinct and our perception on how to deal with issues or concerns is to fix it. That's the way we were brought up. We fix things. Sometimes we need to just listen. But, again, it's that perspective and sometimes not knowing when. I showed this because it does show that perspective of two different approaches to a same situation and we don't always know how we should approach this and also you can see the two different perspectives coming together and having that discussion. So, I think it's appropriate because it does talk about the way guys look at things and a lot of times the way a lot of women look at things. I hope you guys enjoy that as much as I do. I always thought that was a fun video. Situational behaviors. Many of us, as we grow up develop behaviors that are our go-to in certain situations. Ladies, same thing for you too. But it's the same thing for guys. We have these go-tos. We will respond differently in times when we are relaxed and in times when we are stressed out. The stress versus non-stress situations, it changes that whole dynamic of how we respond, right? Think about it. Yes. So, what causes those stressful situations for us guys? And this is speaking from personal experience and guys I talk to and, et cetera. So new situations that we see as high stakes. Situations where there are new people who we perceive as important. Situations where important decisions are made. Think about any kind of educational decision that involves our kids or decisions involving our kids, especially if there are special needs involved and you're dealing with how are we going to approach this. It's high stakes. There are people there that are important and important decisions are being made about our children. It is stressful. And we'll throw a fourth one in. Often, if I'm a guy, I'm the only guy in a room. So in those situations, it's not uncommon for somebody to become very reserved and very uncomfortable. When that happens, when they sit back and not to say something or not to jump in. We're afraid of making a bad decision that's going to go bad for things. It's that high-stakes decision that causes a problem down the road, that we're going to offend somebody who is important and that I'm going to do something or we're going to do something to cause a decision to be made that's not good for our kid. Let's throw on another piece here too. Not all parents have the best -- had the best experiences in school. Or experiences involving health agencies or health issues as kids adds another stressor to them as well. They don't understand the environment particularly well all the time, especially in a parental role and now you're getting into the high-stakes decision making. This impacts behavior. Another big one -- and this is very big for us guys. The fear of failure. The fear that we're failing ourselves and fear that we're failing others like our spouse or our child. This is that story I was going to tell a minute ago. I was doing a workshop 15, 16 years ago in a small district. And it was a -- I don't remember the topic but there was a dad in the room who had just decided to come. Didn't know he was coming. Great. Wonderful. He was there. As I'm presenting, I watch my audience and he was very attentive. And at the end, he kind of hung back and most of the people had left and he came up and talked to me and he said I need to make some changes. Let's talk about it. What's wrong? He was like, okay. My wife has been very upset with me because I'm working six and seven days a week. And she was mad because she said I'm not participating. I'm not helping with our son. I'm not doing the things I need to do. I'm like, okay, why? What's going on? He said because I don't know what else to do but I always thought my job was to make sure that there was food on the table, that we had a roof over our heads, and that everything was fine so that they were protected and safe. And she could take care of our son. And he said I have been working a lot of overtime trying to make sure there was extra money there for doctors' visits and things like that. He said I really need to step back, don't I? I said that's got to be your call but it sounds like maybe you have to work all those hours? He's like, no, I really don't. He's like -- I don't know whatever happened to him. Because that's the only time I ever saw him was at that workshop. But when he left he was pretty sure he was going to pull back and try to get more involved in his family. But I tell that story because it's not unusual for us as guys to try and do the things fall into routines and the things we know that are safe that we can then use to protect our families and to ensure that the foundation of our world is secure, because that's the way we're really brought up a lot of times. I know with my dad, he was very much a you go to work, you do your job. My grandfather was the same way. That's what I saw. I know in talking to him, he saw the same things. It was his job to make sure that there was food on the table and a roof over everybody's head and that the bills were paid and everything else was safe for the family. So we worry about failure. These things prey on our minds. That was the other thing too. He didn't know how to explain that to his wife. These are all those things, the fear of failure, fear of failing the family, they are important. And when you ask us to come into meetings and things like that, it's not unusual for us to try and avoid those situations because we're concerned it's going to create another situation that may be a failure situation for us. Or maybe a possibility, especially when it may create a situation that somebody we care about is going to get hurt or not get services or not be in a position that's going to help. So, anyway, I hope that makes sense. That's a perspective and a mindset we see a lot of times with dads. So, what most people -- what do most people tend to do when they have to go into a repetitive, uncomfortable situation? A lot of folks try to avoid them. They find a reason not to go to a meeting. With dads you see a lot of this. I think you see a lot of guys who step back and when they do step back it's because they are uncomfortable and they don't know how to handle that situation. They're not comfortable in it. I'm sure there's lots of things you can tell me that other things that make dads uncomfortable. Again, I'm not going to ask you to post that in the chat room here but I just want to make the point. So why and how? Why isn't dad involved? The truth is you probably are never going to know. Short of sitting him down and getting him to open up and talk to you, you're probably never going to know. The truth is he may not know why he's not involved. It just happens. So what do we do? How do we deal with this? One of the big things we've got to do is create a pathway or pathways for dad to find his place and to be involved. How do we do that? First, we have to understand perspectives. We talked a lot about how us guys think, perspective-wise, how we look at the world. And it's often something different. So the first thing is something that has been attributed to Walt Whitman. I'm not sure it really is from Walt Whitman. It's the phrase: Be curious, not judgmental. Let's not make adjustments on why people are doing things without understanding why in the first place. Be curious why. What is happening that's not working for you that's making this hard? Instead of just going, well, they're not there so I'm going to hold it against them or whatever. You know where I'm going with this. But be curious. Try and understand the father's perspectives on his place about the situation and how it may be different from yours. We talked a little bit about some of that already. You can do a whole workshop on nothing but that. You can do a whole training on nothing but that. Realize his view of the world and problem solving may be very, very different than yours. We have that fix-it mentality. We also -- there may be times you're going to look at us and think we're coming out of left field somewhere. That's okay. We may be coming out of left field but that's the way our brains work, the way we try to look at situations and try to fix things. And accept that you may need to find a way to meet him somewhere in the middle. Now, let's talk about groups, because this is important for dads. For many guys, group is important. Think about sports teams, fishing buddies, clubs or hobbies. The bowling league, the whatever it may be that guys do. What do we have that is kind of consistent throughout all of this? In every group, in every sports team, in every club there are rules that we all understand about how we are supposed to behave, what we talk about, how we dress, everything. Those rules are important to us. It gives us a framework for how we operate in that world. Groups, sports teams, clubs provide us with some sense of order and it's something that we all typically have been involved in throughout our lives. This is important because it also tells you, gives you a little bit of insight into our how minds work and things that make us feel comfortable. Think about it. In sports, there's always a winner and a loser. You have defined rules that determine how you win or lose. You have uniforms or you have at least standard dress. You have a time-frame things are decided in. All those things that go into play in our lives that so many times we can take out of these events and put them on to the framework of the rest of our world. My wife gets on to me. I have to make my list and if I don't get these things done, she's like, why are you worried about it? I don't know. It's my list. These are important things that have to be taken care of. She's like, why? Don't ask me that question because I can't tell you why. In my head, that's how things work. For a lot of us. Like I said, we find a relaxation in the consistency of the groups and the rules and understanding of that framework. A lot of times we don't understand that framework, we don't understand how it fits together and in the great big picture there's really not a timeline. That timeline is to 18 initially for school and then beyond school as an adult. So all are guideposts, for lack of a better word, have been thrown out and we're trying to figure out how this world operates. It's stressful. One good way does not involve meetings. It's looking for ways to create involvement outside of school or outside of the -- outside of the ESE world or that world you need him involved in but you're going to use that involvement to open the door so he can walk through and be more comfortable and be involved in school. Did that make any sense? I hope so. You're going to look to create things he can be involved in outside of school to open the door to more involvement inside of school. Look for things that are fun and relaxed. And, over time, you grow that involvement as he becomes comfortable, into more serious things and more involved things. And what you're doing is you're building confidence and patience and trust and you're building on that and each step. Anybody remember there was an old movie with Bill Murray called what about Bob? That was the whole thing. Baby steps. Move forward with baby steps. This is what you're doing here. I'm going to give you an example. When Ian was -- my son, Ian, he was little, he wanted to be involved in stuff and we were trying to figure out what he could be involved in. We did Cub Scouts. It started with me as coming to interpret and help him -- I would interpret for him at the pack meetings or the den meetings. And, through a long story, I got sucked into being the cub master the next year. Didn't mean to, I just kind of walked into it. But we had a dad who was a great carpenter, did beautiful work. Had a son and we were basically we were trying to really pull him in. So what we did was we got him to do things that revolved around his carpentry. We had the rain gutter regatta where you sailed sailboats down the rain gutters. We pulled him into that because he was comfortable doing it. By Christmas he was assistant den leader and he looked at me and said, you did this to me, didn't you? Yeah, I did but you're now involved. He stayed with it and last I heard his son was in Boy Scouts and he was helping the boy scout troop. But, again, it was getting him into something comfortable where he could increase his involvement as time went on and the next thing you know we got him. But it takes patience. Building confidence and patience. So, the other thing we run into this involvement is example. I was involved, from the time I was in little league, about 8 years old up through high school. In the college I was involved in baseball, football, and ice hockey. Played football in college, okay? My dad was there as little league coach. He never missed a game. He was there for everything. Very supportive. My dad was an ex-Marine who became a school principal and I think I saw him lose his temper in one time. He was in the dugout, slammed it on the ground, he was a teacher at heart. He may have gotten mad but he kept it inside. He never yelled at kids and it was a wonderful experience growing up. I wanted to be that kind of a dad. Ian showed up and he was two months early, preemie, he's deaf, he's got cerebral palsy, this is not going to happen. What do I do? I'm cast out into the wilderness, I have no idea what we're going to do. Scouting had not been my thing so we start looking for things. We had to brainstorm. I had a couple of teachers who helped us brainstorm things, activities we could do. And it was hard because it's like what's that new paradigm going to look like? So you're getting dad involved with the child. That's the other thing is getting dad involved with the child. Because in doing so you're creating those links there and it can help pull him into the bigger adult activities like meetings and school over time. So instead of football, maybe it was scouts. That's what we did. For Ian, therapeutic horseback riding. I didn't know what that was at first. Hippotherapy, what are we doing with a hippo? No, hippo, horse. Oh, okay. Horseback riding. Fishing. I was never a big fisherman but Ian loved fish. We would sit in a rowboat or on the shore and we had a good time. Going to the zoo, on field trips, family travel. Both of us work for a school system who believed in educational learning. Ian had a passport when he was 11 months old and we went everywhere we could go. We went to the zoo, overseas. Ian now today is a geographic information systems specialist. He has two college degrees. He loves geology, cartography, volcanos. My wife is an environmental engineer who loves volcanos. This kid was in three active volcanos by the time he hit high school. He's been in six or seven active volcanos at this point in his life. People look at us like we're crazy but there are places you can go. He has those experiences but he learned he can do things and I learned he could do things. And he was able to be smart. So it was things that he could file away and reference when he was in school. Those are the things -- and we both love to travel anyway. Those were things that we were able to carry forward and carry on that ripple through time and has impacted his life today. He's an independent adult now. Basically we looked for things that were able to get me involved with him in different routes. One of the big ones was hippotherapy. This is Ian on his last day of hippotherapy. It started out with a dad and son thing. We would go down the road, stop at the local gas station that had a Dunkin' Donuts attached to it, had breakfast and it would be doughnuts and sodas on Saturday mornings until my wife found out and she was in the car with us and I'm like, I am so busted. Because Ian was saying "doughnut." I give her credit because she looked at me and went, okay. This is your guys' thing, that's fine. It's a different way of doing things but do me a favor. No treats on Saturdays after this is done. Doughnuts, that's enough. By the way, and the killer was when she asked for a bear claw and a cup of coffee when I went in to get doughnuts. She was on board. She got it. She understood. She was curious as to why. Anyway, his last day, his therapist entered him into a obstacle course. He rode it independently, the obstacle course with other little kids. He rode it independently and came in second place. The therapist looked at us and said I can't do anymore for him. Here's the card. I already made the phone call, get him in regular riding classes. His good at this. We did and we wound up learning to ride as well and it kind of became a family thing. And then came last summer and this is what we did last summer. [ Video ] Young man with the camera you're looking at, that's Ian. We did a week-long pack trip into Yellowstone back country. We were 45 miles up in. The outfitter said she didn't take many people back up in there because she had to be comfortable with their riding abilities. The way out by emergency was with a helicopter. She said I'm not worried at all about Ian. She said, so, we went to some places back up in there. In talking to the rangers they said maybe 10 or 12 people a year go and see. If you had asked me when that previous picture was taken and told me we would have been doing that, I would have laughed at you. No way. Rippling through time. When you help get the dads involved and get the family involved and get things rolling, the opportunities and the things that can happen are out of this world. Again, rippling through time. Just as an FYI, his next trip, he and his best friend are planning on going to Iceland next summer. They want to see puffins and glaciers. This is him on that trip and that picture is the three of us. It was our last day on the way out. But you can do this. You can find those alternate things. It will give them -- it will show the independence. It will allow the independence and let you do things as a family. Anyway, I'll keep moving. So, dealing with dad. What do we need to take away from this? Make him feel welcome and comfortable. Express the need for his involvement by you or the team. Open doors for him to continue to participate in the future. Give him permission. Sometimes guys just need permission, especially when it's a majority-woman group. I know that may sound bad, but it's true. A lot of guys just need to hear it's okay. We want your opinion. We value what you have to say. We want to hear from you. Come on. Let's go. Express the need for his involvement by your child. Brainstorm issues. How can he help? What he wants for his child, things he can do with his child. Help him. Give him permission. Open doors. Express his importance to the family, to the child, and to the educational process. A lot of times we don't -- a lot of guys don't grasp that piece. They don't see themselves as that important. They see themselves as outliers kind of circling around but not really part of the whole. That reassurance will help him move through the insecurities and fears that he may have. Keep those lines of communication open, even when they're rough or there's problems or issues. Keep those lines of communication open and judgment free and help him understand that the educational process is not like a football game. It's not a zero-sum game where you have a winner or a loser. It's not a success or failure situation. If something doesn't work, the rules are different, you can always try again. You can try something else. You can start again. We need to understand that and have that reassurance. Find normalcy. Encourage him to meet other dads. This is not an easy thing for us guys. Encourage him but don't push. It may take time and a lot of times even if it's finding dads who aren't involved in the specific world, the specific ESE world, just getting them involved with other dads with open doors and they can make connections and there may be somebody they can talk to. Do you have a dads' group? If not, look at creating such a group. You don't need to call it a dads' group. Maybe find a purpose for it to support the school or organization where they can use their talents and skills and begin that process of pulling them in. When you create a group like that, try and build it using dads of other kids with special needs. And that way you've all kind of got that common kind of background, but the purpose is not that background. The purpose is something else but over time as they get to know each other, they'll start talking. Trust me, they'll start talking and eventually you've got yourself not only a group that's helping you build playground equipment but you've also got a support group going on, whether they know it or not. Remember that if a front door is locked, look for a back door open. And if the back door's locked, make a window. Try and find anything that gets them in. Just be inventive. And remember too this is a long haul. This is a process. There's going to be successes. There's going to be failures. The goal is to keep moving forward at whatever level of participation and involvement that you can achieve. I don't know if you have ever heard the term but failing forward. If you're going to fall down, fall down going forward. That way when you get up you're half a step closer to where you're trying to get to. You can fall down ten times but as long as you can get back up 11 and as long as you're failing forward, you're another half step closer to that goal. Again, it's a process. And make sure that dad feels part of the group and he's valued. He may not respond and let you know that he understands that but deep down inside, he will. Okay? Now the nuclear question -- and this is one that you will not get an answer to. You don't want an answer to but it's one that he is going to sit and he's going to think about. Ask him about his own father and what he wanted from him growing up. If he had a good dad, he's going to sit there and go I had a good dad. Am I measuring up to how my dad was with me? And if he had a lousy dad, he's going to sit there and go, oh, God, am I being that dad? Am I being like my dad to my kid? I don't want that to happen. They are never going to answer you but it will sit there and germinate and they'll think about it and they can use that to build off of. That's why I call it the nuclear question. It's about as deep as you can go. So, remember, remain calm and continue to talk. Always emphasize his importance to the child. Reinforce that he can express his ideas and emotions safely. It's a non-judgment zone. Remind him that he is part of the team and that everyone is working together to help his child. And remember that while you may disagree with what he says, he does care and is trying to do what is best in his mind, okay? Encourage him to participate but don't force. But keep encouraging. A little bit of encouragement, a little bit of encouragement. Just keep going. Eventually you'll move him. Bottom line, don't give up on dad.