TSBVI Coffee Hour: Texas 2 Steps
4/19/2021

>> I'm going to open the room if there are no objections. you can-- owe. So while you're waiting you can set the chat to "All panelists and attendees." Hi, Angela. 

>> You made t glad you're here. 

>> Jen from Waco. And from Delaware, welcome. Minuteman Early Intervention Program. -- and Minnesota. Hi, everyone. So glad you're here. Please take a second to set your chat from "All panelists" to all panelists and attendees so everyone can hear. Thanks for coming. 

>> Ireland. 

>> All over today. I've got news, I'll go ahead and get us started with a few announcements. If you have a question or a comment while our presenters are speaking, please put this in the chatbox and make sure your chat is set to "All panelists and attendees" so we can make sure everyone sees what you have to share. Your microphones and crams are automatically muted so you -- cameras are automatically muted so you don't have to worry about that. The handouts are in the chat for immediate viewing and will also be available for later viewing along with the recording of this and past coffee hour sessions shared through a link on our coffee hour page. Once you're on the coffee hour page you will scroll downtown the list of sessions where it says visit the new TSBVI coffee hour archives and it will take you to the videos, transcripts. If you will respond to the evaluation emailed to you from our registration website, you will likely get that this evening. You will enter the code given at the end of today's session and the CEU certificate will automatically generate upon completion of that. There is no opening code, only a closing code and it will be given at the end of this presentation. We will stop the presentation at 12:55 and give you your code and announcements. I'm happy to present your presenters today, Marjie Wood and Jill Brown. 

>> Marjie: Welcome. On behalf of the Texas 2 Steps team we would like to thank you for your interest in Texas 2 Steps. Today we'll be talking about the evaluation tool and curriculum as well as the flash drive that has an e book. The purpose of this tool is for O&M specialists to evaluate O&M skills for children with visual impairments from ages zero to five. And those who are functioning developmentally from those ages as well. This tool should be used as an initial and ongoing evaluation tool to determine present levels of performance and to monitor student progress. The next slide is shows the authors. There are nine authors of this tool, and some of the other ones on the team are here so they will be Debra Sewell and Shea Utley will be using the chatbox so answering your questions during this time. We'll also have questions at the end if you have any questions that you would like to discuss. We also have contributing members and those are people who also spent a lot of time working with us to develop this tool. As a matter of fact, this tool took us six years to develop. How did we develop what we've. >>And and had what we did is we initially looked at a number of curricula of research and it was basically research-based developmental evaluations and curricula. And we took parts from each one. We noticed -- if you notice on this list you'll see that some were developed -- sorry, were developed for typically developing children and some with visual impairments and some with with multiple impairments. So we say where do you start when you start to evaluate? We figure that you probably already know this information, but we wanted to go ahead and put this in our book anyway. And you start off initially with referral information, medical records review, eye report. You get your early intervention or early childhood information, get information from the parent and observation. We assume that you know that, like I was saying, but we also know that you have your own where you live in your own area you're going to have guidelines as well. So let's go ahead and look at the evaluation tool for those of you who may not be familiar with it. It is -- it should be, first of all, an O&M evaluation should be performed by an O&M specialist. Activities that we will show later basically can be used by other people. So let's look at the evaluation booklet. The evaluation comes in a spiral bound booklet and we have it set up in mobility section is blue and the orientation section is green. So it's very easy to recognize that. There's 122 pages total, and 98 pages of ongoing evaluation. We also have information in the beginning, general information and directions and giving you skill numberings and age correlation so that will help you to understand how to use the booklet. We also have scoring. And at the end we have a glossary and appendices. So here is a copy of a picture of what it looks like in the booklet. And at the beginning of the evaluation you're going to find student info and for those -- and it explains how this should be used and which students can use the milk application for and which information to make the O&M specialist feel more comfortable in using the tool. The next page you've got instructions and guidelines on use. And we suggest that you become -- you have some familiarity with the child and that was the word, you start now, you gain information from that. And then how do we score the evaluation? And you're going to score a plus if the child is able to perform the evaluation or has mastered the skill. A minus if they cannot. And an E for emerging if you feel that they are starting to get a little bit of that skill k. We also have an NA if it's not applicable and that might be with children, there may be a visual aspect of after child who has no vision, you would put NA. And then you have a summary of results. So now the next page you'll see it shows mobility. And it lists all of the areas that we're going to be doing an evaluation on. They're all numbered except the very first ones and that is reflexes and postural reactions. This is something that we do not formally assess. It's very important to be aware of the child's developmental stages. This section of the evaluation tool is to be used for observation only and interpreting reflexes and postural reactions can be can complex and we do not formally assess them as O&M specialists. But we do often times and most of the times we ask for OTs and PT's assistance with that, collaborate with them on that. That helps us to understand what's going on with the child. The numbering systems. We numbered these in the evaluation booklet so they will correlate to the same skill in the curriculum book to make it easy for you to be able to locate. And here is our orientation section, which is nine areas. In the mobility we had 16 and orientation we have nine. Here's a sample of the mobility page of our evaluation. And you'll see there are columns. The first column is age in months. And they're very small increments of progress that can be documented. The second one is skill and you can see that they're numbered. The third one is the behavior. And the next is the date and the scoring. So the comment section is below that and this will where you will document any pertinent information, such as if you circle an E for emerging you might want to write down what it is that you observe so when you come back and evaluate it again, you will remember exactly what it was, or you might want to say I observed in a particular environment. Lighting or, you know, a stimulus that you used, an unfamiliar or familiar environment, which is really important. Again, here's the mobility. And you notice it's just a quick glance on it. You can see that it's blue so you know that's mobility. The next page is your orientation. And you're going to see that that is green. So you know immediately that's orientation. So here's an example of the orientation section. I'm going through this pretty rapidly. So now we'll talk about the curriculum section. So in here we've got skill areas listed and we've got information from our pilot that we did. We sent it out while we were working on this to different COMS around the United States and asking them, number one, if they were interested, if this was something that was -- that would be useful for them. And we got back a lot of good information on that. Also general resources. And then we get into reflex information. Again, all of this curriculum tool is 665 pages from cover to reference page. It comes in a three-ring binder with Tabb inserts. And we also, you notice we have reflex information and this time we'll show you later on that this information is a little more explanatory of the reflexes that we feel are necessary to -- that are related to mobility. And then we've got mobility activities and orientation activities. Again, we have the glossary and appendices. We have them in both the evaluation tool and the curriculum tool and that is to make it a lot more easy if you're going to go ahead and evaluate, you can look things up in your evaluation tool versus your curriculum. You don't have to carry the curriculum tool all around if you don't need to and vice versa with the evaluation. So the next slide -- now, we also have appendices. And this is not all exhaustive, but we've got body parts a, environmental sounds. So what we've done is we have listed every concept or every basically concept in these different areas that we feel should be covered from a child from zero to five or again if the child has that developmental zero to five. And this correlates again with our evaluation book but one thing that's added here is Appendix F and that's a sample report. So again, you're going from A to Z. We're giving you everything you need in order to be able to evaluate and plan activities for a child as well as write the report. So here's an example of appendix D. We're just showing you. We've just listed them alphabetically. This is not all of them, but we're just giving you as much as we could think of at the time concepts that we feel are important that are covered for these children. Now, components of reflexes, here we go. We stated before -- sorry. Reflexes are only observation. And this comes from the activity sheet in the curriculum section. They're only for observation. It's important that O&Ms have an understanding of the role of reflexes in the development of motor skills and motor control. We have found that reflexes that fail to integrate are going to -- can result in the inability to achieve a motor milestone. And often times we can see that children may not be able to -- when they can't achieve that milestone it may be due to a reflex that is not matured. Here's what we've included in the absence to reaction patterns and correlation difficulties. And we felt this as a team, felt that this was all important. So you've got a desired behavior, you've got the description of the reflection, age of onset, which is lovely to know when that is p age of of when it should integrate, give or take a couple of months or whatever. Function is related to O&M and implication as related to O&M. So the components of our activity sheets, again, for every skill listed in the evaluation tool we've created an activity to foster that developmental too tool skill. The curriculum has activity sheets designed to support the evaluation evaluation tool. The desired behavior is the skill listed in the evaluation tool. So purpose as related to O&M, why this skill is important is related to O&M. O&M hips to know for self, but explain to others. Suggested activities and review tines, we'll give you those. O -- routines, we'll give you those. Those are just springboards, activities and routines. Again, you will probably come up with other activities and routines. You don't is have to use these. These are just suggested. Then we have infused skills and those are taught incidentally and we'll show you some examples in is just a minute. And then we have areas of concern and many of the areas of concern, especially in mobility when we're talk about motor, we're going to have -- having you consult with an occupation or physical therapist. And stepping forward, what's the next step? What are we going to be working Senator. And the whole tool can be used not only for the O&M to know what we're doing, but also for your parents and often times your supervisors who may say you don't need working with these children. You don't need to be working with these children as a mobility specialist. And you can show in this curriculum and in this evaluation tool that yes, this is mobility. So here is an example of one of our sheets. This is head control 1.16. In the next couple of slides this is actually going to be one page, but we're going to show them in three slides. Here we have the desired behavior. And it tells you what exactly it is that we're looking for. Then the purposes as related to O&M. Again, this helps the parents, it helps you and it helps supervisors and other personnel. So this is the 16th skill of the pages in the area of head control so I think there are 26. I'm not sure, but in head control I forget. Now, you wonder what about this -- the wonderful thing about this is you've also got a picture. And there is a picture for each one of these skills. If you download the e pub file from the flash drive, all the pictures are described in ALT text. All right. Here we have the activities and routines, as you can see. Another picture. It shows exactly what we're trying to -- how we're trying to assess that. And it explains everything while the child is lying on tummy, placing a roll, bolster or blanket under the tummy. This is all part of the one page you're looking at. Here's another routine. Often times we try to come up with multiple activities. And often times in certain areas we also try to come up with activities and routines that not only for those who are babies, but for those children who are a little bit older. 

>> Jill: Marjie, can I just say something? These sheets are meant to be copied, handed out to families and/or teachers. If you have an older child that you're working on some of these activities and it's showing a picture of an infant, you can just put like a little sticky note over it when you're copying so they don't see that picture of the infant, but they can still benefit from those activities or routines. 

>> Marjie: Thank you. And the other thing that's really nice is in your evaluation booklet you see the approximate ages of the children, but then then sometimes you don't need to know you're working on something for a four-year-old that's meant for a five-old-month. So it's good to copy these and give them out. And here again, continuing on with activities and routines. And then we've a fused skill. A fused skill is a skill not directly taught, but embedded into specific O&M instructions. And then we've got areas of concern like I was automatic talking about where he has the physical therapist or occupational therapist. Whenever we're working with motor we know we have to be very careful and it's always great to consult with a PT or OT if you're not one yourself. And then stepping forward as I mentioned before is great to know what is it that we're working next, what's next. Again, all of these three pages, these three slides are on one page. 

>> Jill: Okay. So now that you have an overview of what the evaluation book would look like and what some of the activities would look like, we want to kind of give you a brief run through of a child picking out activities. So I'm going to give you a little bit of background. We're going to be looking at an 18-old-month. Her name is JJ. She was born full term. There were no complications during the pregnancy. She's been diagnosed with bilateral Anna stomach I can't. She is being raised by her great grandmother who is in her 80s. Grandma works full-time to support the family. Birth mom has some mental issues and is not always in the home. At the time of the video her birth mom had been gone 10 months. Great grandmother is an enabler and she feels that this child needs all the love she can give. Due to her age, great grandma is not able to get on the floor so she doesn't let JJ play on the floor much. She doesn't let the child sleep by herself because she says that the child's afraid of the dark. Great grandma also doesn't let her feed herself because it's messy and she spills much. Great grandma gives this baby everything she wants so she doesn't get upset. JJ has learned to clap her hands as if to say more. She doesn't really have any language at this time in time. If you pay attention to this three-minute video, JJ spends two and a half minutes waiting for this toy to come to her. We all know that good fairy syndrome. She even claps her hands at one point to ask for it to come to her. Once she realizes nobody is going to give it to her, then she spends the next 20 or 30 seconds actively, purposefully looking -- trying to get the toy. Vatican City video playing]. 

>> Come on, JJ, get it. Get it, JJ. Get it, JJ. [Babbling]. Get it, JJ. Far. She took about two steps forward it. And never took that third. Get it, JJ. 

>> She's looking for it. You get it, Jayden. JJ do it. You do it, girlfriend. Come on, baby girl. Yay! 

>> Jill: As you can see, it's very painful to sit and watch, but that wait time is so critical in helping our children to problem solve. One thing I didn't tell you is we were going to look at her sitting skills and object permanance skills, but there's so much more going on in this video if you think about the environmental awareness, her motor coordination ability. So based on that -- oops. Based on that our team then looked at the sitting component of the evaluation. And if you notice that she was able to master sitting alone momentarily, maintaining head control and being able to support herself. We felt that she was emerging when sitting independently she will reach in any direction. And we put down an E for that, but we also under the comments said she was able to reach in all directions, but she didn't always maintain her balance. Then in looking at the next set of skills we have here that sitting alone unsupported, her back fairly straight, we put emerging for that because she is sitting, but her back is still rounded, looking at that motor ability. Looking at she's able to lift her head up going from her back to the sitting position. She was able to -- moving in and out of sitting position from her back we said that even though she can get from her back to sitting, the movements are not always controlled. She seems to have some motor planning issues. And going through the sitting if you notice here that she is able to get in and out of sitting from her belly to sitting, but where we really saw her skill break down was maintaining her balance when turning her trunk: So this is kind of where we wanted to start. The the last one, transitioning out of sitting into a variety of surfaces, this one was observed and maybe further observation was noted. So we wanted to start with the skill of 6.17 when maintaining balance when looking at activities. Then looking at object permanance we know she did have a great understanding of object permanance, she knew where that toy was. She didn't always want to get it, she expected it to come to her. And then again she was able to crawl from the carpet to the floor rug to get to that toy. One thing we didn't see was that using a systematic search pattern we gave her a minus on that, but it is a 24 to 48 month skill so we didn't really expect that to happen. We realize that you have a lot questions with this evaluation tool so just write your questions down as we go through. And now we want to step from the evaluation to the curriculum. And for the sake of time we're only going to show the one skill. There are many skills that I know that you can bring in to this, but so we saw that her break down was at 6.17, which was maintaining balance. In the curriculum section we have the exact same wording under desired behavior so you can match the evaluation tool to the curriculum tool. And its purpose was to develop balance. We need good posture, directed reach. It stimulates grasping and trunk rotation, things that the child will need as as they get older and be a cane user. So here are some of the activities that you can use to encourage some of the infused skills. And again, if you go back -- do you want me to go back? On here there is no age on here, so you can just copy this page and give it to the family. For some of the children with more motor involvement we've talked about using a resonance board. We tried to bring in routines. All the activities within the curriculum are geared toward in-home, so all the items can be found within the home. So we're not asking families to go out and buy certain things to perform these activities. And then some areas of concern, again, consult with a physical therapist. And what would be the next step. Buns she gets this skill, what would be the next step as an O&M to look at. So that is a brief overview of the evaluation tool and curriculum that we have. We've also put it into an electronic version for those that would like to do so. In the electronic version, which comes on a flash drive when you buy the curriculum, you have a simple Excel spreadsheet which just has the cover page and then all the orientation skills, all the mobility skills of which you can print out for extra books. We have a regular 2006 step Excel spreadsheet and we'll get into that in a minute. Texas 2 Step. And the evaluation comes in an e-pub file that you can download on to a tablet. You can read it out from there. If you want to score it on a tablet, you're going to have to take the Excel spreadsheet and on download it to the tablet. I know for the iPad I could put it into numbers and then I could do my scoring right there. It's a little bit more tedious. I find it easier to do it on the book, but that's a personal note. So the evaluation document will have a cover page, it will have a page on all the reflexes and then the mobility section and orientation section, a whole summary by age, and a whole summary by the skill level. So here we see the cover page and basically you put your -- the name and some data in there. When you put the child's birthdate in there, it will automatically calculate how old the child is in months so you don't have to do that calculation. Then we have all the skills on the left-hand side, mobility on top, orientation is on bottom. Reflexes is not included on this cover page. And then we have rows one, two and three and that is for the three different assessment dates. The total on the right-hand side is the total number of skills. So when you go and put in -- let me go to the next page and I'll come back to this page. Okay. So when you go on the electronic version and you put in a plus or a minus it automatically calculates it to put it on to the cover page. If you put NA, then that will not count against the child. So like for all the pluses you see here, all the minuses and all the E's, that's automatically calculated to the first assessment date. Okay. I'm going to go and change -- give me a second here. 

>> Marjie: Jill, while you're doing that can I say something? We want to remind you I failed to mention that the first year of life, there's so many skills that a child learns and can achieve. And so we have very, very broken down, very minutely many of the skills level from the first year of life. That's really wonderful that you can go ahead and evaluate children at a very, very young age from birth on. 

>> Jill: To kind of give you a little bit of a sample, this is boy wonder who has been evaluated by the best ever COMS. We have his birthdate here. And then we have the three dates of evaluation of October 5th and then a year later -- or a couple of months later in June and then a year later the following June. So in the first column with the first test date we can see that he has 13 pluses for head control, one minus, two emerging. So he had 50%. At the second testing he was able to get all 26 skills so he's now at 100%. And you can kind of use this to give documentation as to the progression for the child. Okay. Here is what reflexes would look like. I need to make that bigger. Sorry about that. He so on the electronic version again you can see that we have reflex listed and you can write in your notes and then here's mobility. So if we go back to summary by age, this is not something I would personally use, especially with an older child, but if you have a child that's a year old or younger and you want to show progress by months -- so in column A is every skill listed by the month. So let's say in row three from zero to one month there are 14 mobility skills and four orientation skills. So you have your first testing, and here boy wonder got three mobility skills at the first testing and two orientation skills. At the second testing he had four mobility skills and still had the two orientation skills. So you can show progress by months. If you have an eight-old-month you could say he's mastered all of his skills at a two month level or a six-month level. This is again not something I would use, but it just gives you some more information and I know when we have the pilot, some people wanted this kind of information to share. Then we have the overall skill level. This is -- we liked how the Oregon project where you could color code your skill level. So boy wonder -- this is something you will have to do on your own. We color coded the first assessment date, the second assessment date and the third assessment date. So based upon this he had 13 skills when you came over here, here's the 13 skills that he was able to master at the first assessment date and the second assessment date. And of course skills he hasn't mastered yet have not been color coded. And that's like our electronic version. What I like to do is put it all in the book and come back in my own time and put it all back here and then you can save this. What you can also do is make a copy of this and show it to the parent and then the parent has got a very quick overview of their child's progression. With this cover page what you can do is if you wanted to highlight and maybe copy and then you can insert that into your class or to your evaluation to show where their skills are and this is how they've progressed. So now you have data for your class. And it is almost 12:40 so we have a few minutes for questions. If you have any questions, go ahead and put them into the chat. Also know that for those who purchased the curriculum there's a flash drive that has come with it. There is a little glitch on the cover page in which some of these are not calculated right because in the totals here they have the wrong numbers. So if you have you have a flash drive you can email Shay or myself and we can get you the updated link for that. You can contact any one of us if you have further questions. Okay. If you are a VI teacher only and not an O&M, how can you use this? I would definitely collaborate with the O&M as to what the child's weaknesses are. You can use the activities out of the curriculum, and again it's just a springboard. You will start using that, it's like oh, we can do this to encourage this skill. 

>> Marjie: I wanted to say too, I saw some comments, it really does help to have this -- I'm not trying to sell it. We don't make any money off of it, but in terms of being able to explain to people what it is you do with your zero to five population, especially those who are pre-walkers or those who may not be moving, what it is that you can be doing in O&M. And what it is that you're different from VI to others. 

>> Jill: One of the questions is is there evidence-based research on this tool? No, there isn't. We have talked about doing a reliability to make it valid. That has not been done yet. We're still working this out. I think you have to have more people using the tool to look at the -- if we're all scoring it the same way. One of the things with the glossary is we found when we were creating this tool people interpret words differently, like creeping and crawling. And if talk to a physical therapist, they're going to have a very different definition than your definition of creeping and crawling. So we've put all that into the glossary so that you have the same interpretation of what we were trying to say with the wording. We tried to include many things. Yes, it was peer reviewed when we sent out the initial pilot. 

>> Marjie: And we would love feedback from you as well when you start using it or if you are using it, what has worked, hasn't worked. It would be fantastic. Because we considered this -- we were talking about this before everybody came in. And we were talking about this is really like a living document. We're going to continue to add to this. 

>> Jill: We know that there are multiple evaluation tools out there to evaluate young children and infants. I don't know of any other tool that has a correlating curriculum that goes with this. Do you have any other questions or comments? 

>> Marjie: Can people raise their hands? I'm not sure if they just wanted to talk or is it all chat? 

>> This is Kaycee. It will all be through chat. There's a question, can you please repeat what you said about other scoring or just the O&M specialist? The evaluation should be done by an O&M specialist. The activities can be done by anybody else as well as O&M. 

>> Jill: We realize many people that are in the O&M field don't have a lot of background on infants. Especially infants. Once they're walking they understand what to do better. The other thing this tool was designed for is it's not all encompassing as an O&M evaluation. It's only birth to five. We felt as a team that once they hit that five, six-year-old mark, they could easily transition over to taps. 

>> Marjie: And this can also be used and I want to say another evaluation tool that you all may have used before and it's the New Mexico School for the Blind tool. And the one for I think it's zero to six. It's more of a checklist but I think it goes really well together. 

>> Jill: Do you suggest video recording evaluations or having another person as a scorer? Video recording opened my eyes a lot, things that I have missed. So if you can, yes or have another person score, but I find that if I have another person score I'm telling them what to write and what to say and now I've lost my focus on what that child is. Hopefully -- and I do mean hopefully you have multiple sessions to evaluate, not just one quick and dirty session. And I know many early intervention teams want you to get this done quickly. That's a hard to do. And I know visual to do what you have to do and then hopefully you get that child qualified if they qualify and now you've got another six months to 12 months before you do another formal evaluation and you will get to know that child a little bit better so you can fill in some of those blanks that you don't have the initial evaluation. 

>> Marjie: And a lot of that is in your evaluation booklet in the first part that I was telling you about. And explaining a little bit of that. Which helps give you that opportunity about doing more than one evaluation. We took -- we have an O&M evaluation law in Texas and it does say -- it includes you should be evaluating in different types of environments, different lighting conditions, and of course I know you say this is a baby, but still look what you can do, unfamiliar/familiar environment to a child who's not moving it may be an unfamiliar environment, may be a part of the house they never go to. So things like that, or outdoors. So all the instructions in the front part it helps you understand how to do your evaluation. 

>> Jill: Also know that you are going to get a lot of information from family, parent, caregiver interview. You can ask them a lot of questions. The other thing to think about too is if you get a two-year-old referral, you don't have to start at the one month level. You kind of -- you observe them first, you kind of have an understanding of where they are. Through parent interview you have a basis of where to again your assessment. You don't have to begin at the very beginning if they already have passed those skills. 

>> Marjie: I think we're almost at the end. Does anybody have any more questions? 

>> Jill: Woohoo. Well, I hope that you all enjoy using this. We've enjoyed creating it. It took a long time to birth this baby. [Laughter]. We were about six or seven years in development, and of those six or seven years we spent at least three years researching to know what skills to include that would be important for O&Ms. 

>> Marjie: Thank you all so much. 

>> Thank you, Marjie and Jill. You've got lots of thanks coming in in the chat. I'll go ahead and give you guys the closing code. Some announcements. Your code for today is 041521. That's 041521. On April 18th we have no car seat, no problem. Independent traveling. And on the 22nd of April we have an update on the progression of tactile learning environmental checklist with Debra, Anne, Sara and Scott. Check our coffee hour website at TSBVI.edu/coffee hour for upcoming registration. Again, to obtain your CEUs for today you will respond to the evaluation emailed to you this evening from our registration website. You will enter the code, which again is 041521. And the CEU certificate will automatically generate on completion of that evaluation. Also the handouts and recordings from this and past sessions are available through a link on our coffee hour page, TSBVI.edu/coffee hour. Once you're on the page you will go to the list of sessions where it says visit the new TSBVI coffee hour archive. That's a link and it will take you to the recordings, handouts, transcript and chat information. On the evaluation you receive from esc works, there are two objections, 10 and 11 and they say additional comments you would like to share with the presenters and additional comments to share with the event planning committee. If you would use those boxes and let us know if the days and times we're offering coffee hour work for your schedule or if you have other suggestions and were particularly looking for feedback for next school year, we're in planning right now no next school year. So whether you would like to see this continue on the Monday and Thursday 3:00 p.m. and noontime schedule or if we should go down to once a week or different times are needed, we would love your feedback. We also would love your feedback on ideas for topics for future Coffee Hours, which we are also planning right now. Thanks so much for coming today. One more time the code is 041521. Really thanks so much. Thanks again to Jill and Marjie and everybody who helped in the chat. There's not an opening code. Somebody asked about the opening code. There's just a closing code. Thank you, everybody. [End of webinar].