>> Sara Kitchen: Yeah, I think you have to set up -- if you don't have the active learning equipment, you have to just think about how, you know, that might look in other environments. You know, and if, if sometimes you just can't, you just can't answer the question yet if they haven't had that exposure.
>> Kate Hurst: Yeah.
>> Sara: -- know, that -- because their active learning environments are so specific, and because that's the time when they can practice it, and if there's not a whole of other times that they can practice that.
>> Kate: Yeah, yeah.
>> Sara: You know, things go away.
>> Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Sara: So.
>> Gigi Newton: Yeah, the whole thing, [inaudible], I mean, we've seen it without the active learning equipment, just getting them moving and --
>> Sara: Yeah.
>> Gigi: -- how you interact playing with them, having two objects that's the same --
>> Sara: Yeah.
>> Gigi: -- the kids have one, and you have one. And what do you do with it; what do I do with it? [inaudible], I'm thinking that what you said earlier is it is a true balance, and it's our -- I feel like it's our job to get them exploring the world and their environment, however they do it, whether it's through mouthing, using their hands, using their feet, whatever it is, and honoring that, and building up their self-identity in how they do those things, and then finding out what sensory channel it is that makes the most sense to them learning, and then from that they're going to start building memories.
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: And from those memories, we have to keep expanding those memories --
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: -- but it's tied back to their major learning skills. Does this make sense?
>> Kate: Mm.
>> Gigi: It's so bizarre. I, on this trip, on Thanksgiving, we were listening to NPR, and Mary -- she was on "Taxi," I, I've got to remind her -- anyway --
>> Sara: Marilu Henner.
>> Gigi: Marilu Henner. Titled my, titled "Memory Makeover." And I'm like, "Oh, my God, here is this actress [inaudible] tie my brain research stuff into," but her last chapter, you know how we talk about anticipation, motivation, the five -tions?
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: Her last part, she has total auditory recall memory.
>> Group: Oooooh!
>> Kate: So jealous.
>> Gigi: But she can remember dates --
>> Kate: Mm-hm. 
>> Speaker 2: -- from --
>> Kate: Yeah.
>> -- 15, 20 years ago. 
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Speaker 2: And her last chapter in her book talks about recollection, maintenance, and enhancement.
>> Kate: Mm.
>> Gigi: And bottom line, what that is, it's the -tions.
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: And that everybody has a potential --
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: -- but we just get so busy, and we get so cluttered in things, and I think as a teacher that's what I used to do to kids.
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: Because I had my agenda, what I wanted them to do, and I really didn't look at how they gather information.
>> Kate: Mm.
>> Gigi: And then the thought of going back and building memory from that.
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: I was thinking about our kids that are dual-sensory impaired, and I see kids, I go in and I see kids doing artwork.
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: And if you think of a deafblind kid, and if you think you're working on body parts, what, how neat would it be to, you know, we do it: "you have a nose; I have a nose."
>> Kate: Mm-hm. Touching?
>> Gigi: Yeah, touching, building on that. Okay, so that, when they get that memory, and you can have that communication about "here's my nose; here's your nose," what would be your next step on building that on a memory? I have yet to see any of my little ones interact with baby talk.
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: I don't, I have not seen them do -- you know, now I'm not there 24-7; it could happen, but I'm kind of curious. Do we ever take, do they, like -- ?
>> Cyral: Mm-hm. Well, is the baby doll real [inaudible]?
>> Gigi: Well, what, but see once you get other people. 
>> Kate: Yeah.
>> Gigi: Now I say mom and, mom and the baby would do --
>> Cyral: Right.
>> Gigi: -- "where's your nose?" Just like it's, just like it's typically developing --
>> Cyral: Right.
>> Gigi: -- but we're going to do it through tactile --
>> Cyral: Right.
>> Kate: Mm-hm, mm-hm.
>> Gigi: -- and feel, and once they could reciprocate -- "there's mama's nose; here's my nose" -- then you would transfer to an inanimate object.
>> Kate: Well --
>> Gigi : And again, I mean, I'm thinking of building memory. But we don't, we don't, I don't see that.
>> Kate: Well --
>> Gigi: And I don't know that we're doing that.
>> Kate: And what that makes me think of, if you look back at the really, really old (Jan) van Dijk tapes, and we had some of them, and I've looked at them. He has a whole part where he does work with dolls.
>> Cyral: Really.
>> Kate: Yes.
>> Gigi: Oh, really.
>> Kate: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And his --
>> Gigi: Hm.
>> Kate: -- his sets, he does, you know, some body parts stuff. He does imitation with body -- you know, like --
>> Gigi: Yeah.
>> Kate: -- moving body? He does a whole, used to do, I mean, when I came into the business, bench work, there was a thing called bench work. And you did some -- with a deafblind student -- you started out by being body to body --
>> Cyral: Right.
>> Kate: --  scooting down a bench --
>> Cyral: Right.
>> Kate: -- and then you [inaudible], and then you walked across the bench, and then they walked across a bench, and then, you know, you begin to do imitation that way. And then he moves into doing work with dolls.
>> Cyral: Never seen it.
>> Kate: And it's something, I don't hear him talk about it anymore --
>> Cyral: Mm.
>> Kate: -- you don't see it, much of it --
>> Cyral: Hm.
>> Kate: -- but I have, we have somewhere in our vault --
>> Cyral: Maybe.
>> Kate: -- these old tapes of [inaudible] doing stuff with dolls.
>> Cyral: Hm.
>> Kate: -- and it was part of --
>> Sara: The kids responded?
>> Kate: And the kids responded. They responded. But they were in a much, they were, they were --
>> Cyral: [inaudible]
>> Kate: -- way past imitation by that point --
>> Cyral: Right, right.
>> Kate: -- before he did that, that kind of work. And I think, you know, again going back to what Patty was talking about, until you've got a kid that is interacting with you, that can do some imitation, you know, you can't go to that level of work with them. You know? And I think when we're doing activity routines oftentimes we're already jumping up to that level of, you know, helping with work and dealing with consequences when they're just not ready to do that. And that doesn?t mean you don't do care-giving activities.
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Kate: But again, thinking back to, like, things like [inaudible] --
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Kate: -- you know, before you do get to that part you look at what, like Gigi said --
>> Cyral: Sensory.
>> Kate: -- you look at sensory channels -- 
>> Cyral: Mm-hm, mm-hm.
>> Kate: -- what's meaningful, what's motivating --
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Kate:  -- what's interesting to them there, and you spend a lot of time building activities --
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Kate: -- around those things to get them to initiate, to get them to interact with you. There's a lot of pieces there before we get to this place that I think we frequently jump to as a starting point with these children, and they're just not there yet.
>> Cyral: Yeah.
>> Remote respondent: I think, if I may, you're in that offering stage, and I guess the question is how do you -- if there, is there any little intermediary kind of steps to get them to take them to that next level where they begin to see more of the, you know, ability to imitate and see things that are same, where you can take salient features from different, from objects like dolls and tag them to do "hey, just like my nose; just like your nose." You know, what are those intermediate steps, but, you know, from the offering standpoint?
>> Kate: Well, [inaudible], I'm going to, I'm going let others -- that's a great question -- I'm going to let others respond to this as well, but one of the things that comes to mind with me, what Lily says is that we give them as much opportunity to experience in the, in the phase that they're in -- like we start out with offering and offering, and we'll move to the next phase and we'll try to do something and get them to maybe go along with us or try to imitate us, but if they don't do it, then we jump back. And what she would say is, when they get ready, they do it, and we'll see it. So there's not, there's not something, like, you know, there's some trick that we can do to get them there faster. We just have to keep doing it at that level, periodically going up to the, trying to get them to imitate and seeing where they are. And if they, if they will try to imitate a little bit, then we'll, we maybe will keep them engaged in that for a while and try to bring them along, but the, but what she would say is it, it's a, they have to reach their readiness at their own time, and there's no trick for getting them there faster. We just want to give them more and more and more opportunities --
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Kate: -- for that experience and for experiencing things at the level that they are, until they are ready to move on.
>> Cyral: But that is a trick. 
>> Kate: But that, well, it is.
>> Cyral: It is a trick. It's hard.
>> Kate: No, it is a trick. It is hard. 
>> Cyral: Yeah.
>> Kate: It's hard to stay there --
>> Cyral: Right.
>> Kate: -- when you're ready to jump on.
>> Cyral: Oh, I think it's really hard.
>> Gigi Newton: And I think -- this is Gigi -- and I think the other trick to that is I -- lately I've seen a lot of reports where it says the child needs multi-sensory stimulation --
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: -- and yeah, they may on a given day, but then on another given day or minute, even, that multi-sensory stimulation can throw them into an overload stress mode.
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Newton: So truly I believe the biggest thing -- and I, and I, you know, I do focus on babies, so this, I think it's sometimes easier -- it's really observing that child --
>> Kate: Yeah.
>> Cyral: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: -- in that moment, and how their system is dealing with information, whether it's through play or physical contact, and knowing that what worked at one time may need to be tweaked a little bit depending on how they're feeling or what's going on around. But it doesn't, it doesn't mean we -- I don't know how to say this -- you want to keep adding what Robbie [Blaha] says is "that cayenne pepper," but you've got to observe and make sure you're not --
>> Kate: Overwhelming them?
>> Gigi: -- sending them over the edge.
>> Kate: Mm-hm.
>> Gigi: Because once they're out of control, the learning stops. And depending on what their memory and recall is, is how quickly they will come back. But all of that is gathering information.