TRANSCRIPT Communication and Complex Learners: Before the Device 9/22/25 >>Sara: We are here to talk about communication and complex learners. And the kinds of things that we have to consider before we jump into using a device for them to communicate. So we're going to go through that. We have a lot of resources that we will share with you as well. That's where Lynne and I got our information. So I'm Sara and Lynne is the other person that you can see. >>Lynne: Hello, everybody. >>Sara: And so the first question is: What is communication? What is this big, nebulous thing that sometimes is hard to define? And, you know, one way to think about it is by asking all these questions, why do we communicate? What do we communicate about and how do we communicate? And, you know, we have to find things that are compelling to us, things that are important to us. That's what we want to make sure we give a message to somebody. How do we communicate? That's like how is the message carried to another person. A lot of times we have to think about is it a perceivable message to both parties involved. And then, of course, what do we communicate about? We communicate about all kinds of things, and we're going to explore that a little bit more. Why do we communicate? Well, these were the things Lynne and I could think of why we communicate. We want to reject, say no to something. That's an early kind of thing that we learn. We want to request something. We want more of something that somebody else could help us with. We want to play. We just want to connect with another person. That's a really important thing for humans to use communication for. Because connecting with others makes us feel safe and when we're safe we feel more like we can reach out from our own little world and explore the others, because we feel more confident, more secure. And then, of course, the usual giving and receiving of information is one of the ways we communicate. Is there any other reason that y'all can think about to communicate? If you want to, if you thought, oh, she didn't say that, then please type it into the chat. So on the next slide, there is the how. And this came from -- we got this idea from Robbie Blaha's book on calendars, and that resource is in your handout. And it's a really nice way to think about how to divide up how we communicate. So there are things that are static. Those things that stay put. Things that don't go away. That's one way we have to communicate. And we need both. We definitely need both static and dynamic ways to communicate. Dynamic communication is things that go away. So you can't grab them. Once they're gone, they're in memory. They don't really exist anymore. So there's those two kinds of ways that we communicate. On the next slide, there are -- type some examples. Static kind of communication. You can also type in the kinds of things -- type in whatever you want and we can talk about whether they're static or dynamic kinds of communication. Anything you want to type into the chat. Typing into the chat is communicating. And what type of information is typing into the chat? That would be static because it's in the chat. Until the chat goes away. But it's static as long as it's written down. Dynamic, I'm seeing wave. Waving is a dynamic form of communicating. S books and D-emotions. I'm not sure what that is. They sound like they might be static. And conversation hearts. Oh, would that be like in the chat where you heart somebody else's comment, Heather? Typing is static for now, yes. Yelling or reaching for a hand. I think of the reaching part is -- yeah, reaching for hand. These are all things that will go away. Those look like dynamic things. Giggling, nodding, eye contact. Dynamic. Printed books. That would be static. So you all have named a lot of different things. There's also -- I think you've named things in most of these categories. You know, there's static communication in objects, words, pictures, a schedule, an anticipation baskets, a finished baskets, those kinds of things are static. They are objects. They stay put. And, of course, books. And then dynamic things are more like gestures, the kinds of things that you mentioned. Facial expressions. Using language, talking, saying words. All the things that I'm saying will go away. We did not give an opening code. Abstract symbols, those would be -- it depends -- abstract symbols are generally static in nature. But written words, spoken words can be pretty abstract too. So but words spoken are dynamic. Words written down are static. So prompts. Prompts. Those are dynamic. What do we communicate? We communicate about things we know, things we have experience with. Sometimes we want to communicate about things we don't know, like when is this dreaded activity going to happen? You know, who is that person over there? And we generally want to find out about things we don't know only if we have some experience with those things, like connecting to those things. And a lot of times things we don't know we won't even notice if we don't have any experience related to them. Or we don't perceive them. We definitely like to communicate about our feelings. We do a lot of communicating about feelings from very early on. And we continue that into adulthood, of course. On the next slide, we have seven levels of communication that we're going to just look at. Because it's really nice to be able to kind of break down communication. Where does it start and how does it move forward. How does it move more towards how, you know, we are all communicating today. >>Lynne: Sara, I have a question. Are these seven levels, are they developmental? Meaning, do people move through them from one to seven? And they have to have the skill before the next skill? >>Sara: Yes, absolutely. You can't skip from pre-intentional behavior to a symbolic abstract communication. You generally need to do all the things in between. A lot of these things happen very early in life for some people. For others, it doesn't happen so quickly or it may take a very long time for this to develop. So we have to look at what, you know, what is the person doing to find out how they're communicating. And one of the ways that we can look at that is through using the Communication Matrix where these seven levels came from. So this is all about the child's expressive communication. Instead of anybody making assumptions, it's really about -- the Communication Matrix looks at the child's behavior and not at what people think they might be doing but what they're actually doing. So pre-intentional behavior is the first level, and that's kind of like reflexes and things like that. Then there's intentional behavior, where the child doesn't have an intent to communicate. We're going to go into these more in depth in a bit. The next slide, there is unconventional communication. And so people who know that person might understand what they're saying, but they might -- it's not like typical or necessarily socially acceptable to communicate like that. You know, we generally don't, you know, don't go through life just grabbing somebody's hand and dragging them to an area to communicate. You know, that's unconventional. But yet it is understood. So it's kind of borderline conventional. But it's not yet symbolic. Okay? So conventional communication, things like waving, pushing away, they're not really symbolic but they're more conventional, more everyday use. So let's look at the next slide. And we have -- then we start to have symbol, talk of symbols. Symbols start with concrete symbols that are exactly what -- you wouldn't mistake them for something else. The child wouldn't mistake them for something else. They are basically like a shoelace or shoe would be I'm putting on my shoe. So it's not a far leap from the object to what the activity is. It's not a leap at all. But then it becomes more of a leap when there's a word or a sign, a picture, I think would be here too. A tactile symbol, which is more of an abstract symbol. And then language is the most abstract of the levels of communication, of the symbolic communication. Let us look at -- oh, they fly in here. The first one here -- these are divided up. Those seven levels are divided up into three categories. And they were kind of divided that way up on your slides. So there's not intentional communication. Those are the first two. Intentional communication and then symbolic communication, the last three. It's kind of conceptually easier to divide them into three categories, just for, you know, compartmentalizing about what do I do about this. So non-intentional communication is on the next slide. And that is behavior that's interpreted by the caregiver. And so the child does something and in that pre-intentional state, it's a reflex. Or the child is responding to their own feelings, to their own internal state or to something that happened to them sensorily and the adult is going, oh, that, to me, means you're feeling uncomfortable. You're crying so let's check that make sure you're comfortable. Let's make you comfortable. Let's rock you. You're upset. So I'm going to respond to that reflexive pre-intentional communication and assume that I know. Sometimes we don't know. We have to try a few different things to find out what's going on. And then there's intentional behavior. That is where the child is aware that they can move their body in a particular way. They're not just responding to stimuli, basically, but they're actually planning it a little bit in their mind. But they don't really know that they can affect others. >>Lynne: And Sara, this is Lynne. I just have a comment about that. I think the second bullet, the child controls their own behavior but is unaware they can affect others is really magnified in our population of kids who lack visual access to the world. Because then they really don't know that you're reacting in any way to whatever it is they're doing. And so I think this second bullet -- like the first and second bullet is, you know, in a typically-developing child might be, like, baby and toddler. But for kids without visual access or limited visual access, I can see why they would, you know, really kind of linger on without really express, direct teaching. You throwing this plate across the room or tumping the table over, I am responding to that. Do you know what I mean? >>Sara: Yeah. And that's a really good point, Lynne. Because, you know, babies with typical vision are ready to have an interaction with a caregiver. Now, they're looking at the caregiver's eyes is more of a reflexive sort of behavior. But it also does help that child control their emotional state and feel cared for and feel connected. It's a reflexive thing and yet it is wired in to all babies. And if they don't have that response, they don't have that eye contact for some reason, then they haven't had the same kind of experience with an adult so that they can just naturally start to know that the adult is -- that they are affecting other people. That they can affect other people. It's a gradual thing. It doesn't just all of a sudden happen. But the child hasn't has those experiences to start to build on this thing where, oh, I can maybe I can do stuff. And maybe other people -- oh, wait. Other people did something every time I did that? And then they start to know, oh, people can -- I can affect other people with not just by crying but by doing something else. So examples of the pre-intentional behavior is the wriggling, agitated, all those bio-behavioral states that we know about. And then some more examples of intentional would be, you know, like I'm happy. I'm smiling. I'm not responding just to my internal state but I'm seeing something and that makes me happy. I'm throwing objects or pushing them away. I'm turning away or turning towards something that I like. But I haven't yet incorporated anybody else into my communication. I'm just acting on objects. I'm communicating with objects and they're not really very good communication partners, for the most part. So strategies for non-intentional communicators on the next slide. So we spend a lot of time with these children observing them and the reason why we want to observe them is we want to find out the way they communicate, the way they are, the things they're liking, the things they're not liking. And then we can learn by seeing what kind of person they are, how we might do anything else with them. What kind of co-regulation do they respond to? They probably -- a lot of times it's very frustrating, you know, for kids who have been around a little bit longer but still aren't able to control very much in their world, and that can make it so that they don't -- they have a harder time regulating themselves. Also just systems that are underdeveloped can have a harder time with self-regulation, so we want our kids to be able to be receptive to us and then co-regulation and that connection can really help with that. And then we would just, you know, the other kinds of things we can do is offer them things without any demands or imitate some of the things they're doing, just to get that back and forth kind of thing started. And on the next slide, we have more strategies. Commenting and labeling learnerrer's actions and emotions. If they are okay with you saying things they don't know, you can start to label things that they're doing. And then responding consistently, once they start to communicate intentionally. So that they'll know. They'll be like, oh, I really do have an impact on this person. I'm going to experiment. I'm going to do that again and see if they do the same thing. If our response is always kind of random, then they're going to have a harder time understanding that they have an impact, they have an effect on us. So the main focus of this time is being together. It's not preparing for a quiz. So strategies for non-intentional communicators. Don't usually include a device. But, I don't know. I wonder if y'all think -- or have you seen non-intentional communicators have a device and what have you seen happen when non-intentional communicators have a device? You can type it into the chat. >>Lynne: This is Lynne. As an example, I had a student in my class who was using tactile symbols. He was new and he came using -- the teacher said he knew tactile symbols. And he did. He would go over there and pick them up and stand there. He had no idea that that symbol was a way to communicate to another person that he wanted that thing. It was just the symbol was this magical thing that all he had to do was pick it up and then all of a sudden it would appear. Somebody would bring it to him. But there was no intentional communication about it. And so I had to teach him to find someone and hand it to them before the thing would appear. And so people in the chat are saying, yeah, repeatedly hitting a switch. Are you reading the chat, Sara, or would you like me to read it out loud? >>Sara: I'm reading it. I'm hearing auditory fishing, hitting all the buttons. That's similar to repeatedly hitting the switch. But they have to find the one they like first to push that a lot. There is someone who says they might not be using the device intentionally at first. It gives staff an opportunity to model robust language. That might be a way to help the staff be more consistent in their verbalizations or signs. Yeah. You can be modeling without expectation, putting expectations on the student and that they might explore the device by trying out lots of different words to see what they say. When somebody is a non-intentional communicator, I have seen a lot of that repeated switch hitting. I haven't seen so much of them paying very much attention to the language or using the language themselves in this kind of setting. I have seen definitely that the child wants to press the button a lot. You know, if it's not there, if the device is broken or, you know, the batteries are -- there's no more batteries or something then, you know, they get upset. Really, the main thing I have seen is that kids start to use this very early and it becomes a thing during their life. And they use it to shut out other people. They, you know, have a device that -- sometimes it's a toy. Sometimes it's an actual device but they don't want to play with it with other people. They want to be by themself with it and it's something that you can use to soothe yourself because it does have a pretty consistent response. If you push this button, it will do this thing. Whereas other humans can be inconsistent and sometimes that's scary. So sometimes kids don't develop social skills with that. Instead, they develop a connection with the device, which doesn't really lead anywhere. >>Lynne: Also -- this is Lynne. I think, you know, if a device is the only thing you're using, the team is using, or the speech person is using to teach communication, we have multiple ways to communicate with other people. And we use them all. So I don't think, you know, the selection of one way to communicate is ever ideal for any person. Because sometimes that one thing isn't available. You know, sometimes we might have lost our voice and we don't really want to talk because it hurts. So how are we going to communicate with other people if that happens? You know, I just really hesitate that the device is it, and that's what the team concentrates on. Because of the kid's visual impairment, they're not going to learn just from, you know -- that word always escapes me. Because they can't see other people communicate with each other, they're not going to learn incidentally that there's other ways they can communicate. They have to be directly taught those ways. They have to be taught to hand somebody something. They have to be taught to take someone to an area. And so, you know, limiting the team -- limiting themselves to just device use is really -- deprives the child of learning all sorts of other ways we communicate with each other. >>Sara: Yeah, and there are some comments here about isn't that a type of babbling on the device, which is appropriate? I think that could be. It really depends on how the child is using it. And then Shelby asked if you have evidence of a device causing social isolation. I haven't looked up this phenomenon, I've just observed it firsthand with a number of students. Just I have seen a lot of students who do that. But I don't -- I think it's not just the device, I think it's the device and what Lynne was talking about, not having other ways to communicate and not having person to person communication, which would be what would cause the isolation, not the device itself. So, let's see. >>Lynne: Promote total communication. Yes. I agree. Total communication is the way to go. And I just want to ask -- this is a little off topic. Have you seen ever experienced your students treating people like one of their devices? If the person always responds verbally with whatever it is their response to it? Yes. And so, you know, I think those are the kids that are really good kind of with things and not so much with people. And so when they start acting on people as if they are a tool, as if they're a device and they kind of like perseverate. I'm going to scratch you and you say we don't scratch. I pushed your button and you said this thing. That also is not really true communication. It's just kind of play, in a way. >>Sara: Experimenttation and it's like is this going to happen again? I'm trying to control my world. I've known a lot of kids who like to -- kids with pretty severe visual impairment or blindness who like to swing something, you know. And they start to swing something around and it's heavy on one side and they swing it. If nobody says anything, they stop and they go, "ow." It's like they want to find out if there's anyone out there but they're also prompting someone to, you know, to make that sound because they're like, I thought if I did that, if there's somebody here I'm going to hit them and they're going to say "Ow." >>Lynne: And some kids, I think of kids with optic nerve hypoplasia, that are just so oriented to the verbal world. And so, you know, some of those kids can get really, really creative and how to make you say this thing they want you to say. They can prompt you to do that and they're pretty smart about it. Anyway, I digress. Sara, go ahead. >>Sara: There's a cool link shared. It's an SLP-BVI group, which is so cool. >>Lynne: Out of California. >>Sara: I'm directing everybody to the chat. Click on that link. I'm going to have it open so I can check out what y'all are doing. >>Lynne: Shelby, is that open to everyone or only speech pathologists? >>Sara: Oh, we can't join. Okay. Lynne and I also -- this is all stuff we have learned from the speech pathologists that we've worked with too. And so we're kind of secondhand people for this. But it's stuff that we used in our classrooms when we were working with kids on an everyday basis. And so we found out -- yes, actually it's true. It works! >>Lynne: Very much. >>Sara: So there's intentional behavioral versus intentional communication. So this is a really big -- this is a really big thing. Orienting to another person is really, really important. That's when children know that, oh, communication is with a person. It's so important. Because even if we use a device, that's an in-between thing, but we're really communicating with other people. And so we want to make sure that somebody knows that they're communicating with other people, using the device to communicate with other people. And so that's an important point that also Jane Korsten makes that point. She talks about interaction, rather than reaction. So this is a huge turning point for kids. And once we get there, it's so important to help kids learn that people can receive messages. It's such a big development. On the next slide -- >>Lynne: Oh, he changed it already. >>Sara: Thank you, Nathan. So we continue to offer, imitate, and co-regulate, because there may still be some need for that. And then we have serve and return kind of interactions. That's a back and forth, that's the first kind of communication. That happens in young children fairly early. And that's from the Harvard Center for the Developing Child. There's a link in your notes for that, more specific what does that look like. And then there are a lot of really great ways to build communication into routines. Very early is something called Reinstatement, and that's by first things first. Designed to learn, that's also in your resources. Using consistent objects, actions, and language is from Hagood. And then providing many, many opportunities for repetition so that the child can make sure to know, they can get those neurons good and greased up so they can really understand this. And you can also introduce an anticipation calendar at this time. And zero to three is a good website for looking at co-regulation. These are also -- giving you these resources in case you want to talk to other people about these kinds of things and you want an example. >>Lynne: Right. >>Sara: When you know the child wants more to drink, have your hand out in a perceivable way so they can learn you're ready to receive the cup. That's just an example of the kinds of things you can do within a routine. >>Lynne: Guys, I would also like to reiterate that you have to really anybody your teaching goal, right? So if you have a kid that, you know, you're teaching them to do a snack-making routine, is it your goal that they're going to independently make their snacks for the rest of their life? Or is your goal that they are going to communicate with you through this process? The task itself does not have to be the point of the lesson. The task really can just be about you're going to communicate back and forth. You know, sometimes we ask teachers, well, what does your student like to do? And they say they don't like to do anything. But they do like to do things. Even if it's just kind of bodily movement that they do, like rocking. Well, you can build a whole routine around rocking. And you can rock and you can stop. And the student will move their body in a way to indicate they want you to start rocking again. There's all sorts of things you can do just around what they are interested in. So that is, you know, we do ask people to stop thinking about the lesson as the point. Really, for these kids learning how to communicate, that is the point. And the more ways that they're interested in, they're going to want to communicate with you about. That's what you use. >>Sara: Yeah. And that reinstatement, that first things first is a really great resource for that kind of activity that Lynne was talking about with the rocking or just, you know, joining in with a child's activities and then starting to introduce objects that may be used as symbols at some point. So the next -- we have a video example of a serve and return. And this is a dad and his little boy and they are just being together. The dad was doing these vocalizations based on his child. His child liked to vocalize this way, and so he was having a back and forth this way. He didn't start it, but it kind of looks like he did when the video starts. [ Video ] [ Vocalizing ] >>Sara: Another especially neat thing about this is the child is getting a multi-sensory experience by lying on his dad so he can feel, not just hear the vocalizations, but he can feel his dad rumble while making those noises. We can go on to the next. So cute. Okay. So then we have the beginning of intentional communication. This is still pre-symbolic. It's really about the here and now and that is -- starts with unconventional communication. So it's effective but it's not necessarily what we're going to end up with. And it's not necessarily something that we do in an everyday way when we're adults. Things like tugging, whining, jumping up and down. Which we probably do as adults every once in a while, but not in very many situations. And then we have conventional communication, which is really learned through experience and modeling from other people. Things like pointing, nodding, shaking head, waving hello and good-bye, and tapping somebody on the shoulder. Those things are going to be more understood by other people than the unconventional communication. And it's so great when kids get here because that's when you can start modeling. That's when you can start really knowing, you know, that you can really move towards more structured communication this way. And, you know, things that look Sometimes it takes kids longer to get there because if they have spent a long time with failure to communication because somebody hasn't gotten the message they wanted them to get, they can kind of shut down and have a harder time connecting with other people to get here. So that's why all that safety stuff is so important that we build at the very beginning and all that connection and the co-regulation. So how do we move from unconventional to conventional communication? I think this is probably things that you've seen a lot of times. You know, having them hand a person an object or perform a certain action or look towards a -- things that say I want blank. And so that's more concrete. When we want to start with really concrete things that are in daily routines where the child knows what the expectation is. They know what their part is and things are not going to be murky. And establishing those routines can be really important. >>Lynne: And this is Lynne. And also, you know, they are doing an action with an object from them to you. It's very, very clear. There is no confusion about who is interacting with who. Where in this situation, if the child doesn't know this yet, is just learning, a device making a sound can be taken like I have no idea why that's happening. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what it means. And I don't know that the other human here in the room, if that has anything to do with that person. Whereas handing something to someone's hand, very tactile. And there's no confusion it's two people together. >>Sara: Right. Right. And those distant senses can sometimes make things less, you know, it's harder to define. It's harder to pinpoint what's happening. But, yeah. If you're in physical contact with an object and/or with a person, then you're really knowing it's really concrete. That there's a person involved. And all this is laid out really specifically and spelled out in this excellent book. It's kind of an old one but it's really good. The book, the communication book by Linda Hagood. I just recommend everybody get a copy of this if this is an important area to you. And then let's look at the next slide. Oh, yes. This is an example of a choice board. So a lot of times there's an actual physical dividing line between the two options. So you can say I want this and not that. So you're taking one thing -- and my background is sucking all my gestures into it. And it's clear you want this. That's a time where you can model I don't want that. Because the child has chosen what they want. No thank you. And you can pair it with language that's the language of rejection. But it's very concrete, like Lynne was talking about. >>Lynne: Sara, this is Lynne. Sara and I have, you know, we've seen kids and had teams invite us in to help with kids. And we've seen kids that do use devices. When we ask the team, well, how do you know that they really know what that symbol on the device means? And they said, well, because they're always happy. The choice. Usually it's around some kind of choice of what do you want to do now. But all the choices are things that make the child happy, you know, so you never really get an indication. There's nothing in there that the child would not want to do. So they're very happy. Once again, you don't know if they know what that image is or the symbol or even if they're getting that -- acting on this thing over here is really me communicating with you, mom. Because they like everything. You know, just kind of digging down a little deeper for these guys. How do you really know they understand what's on that device, that image? Especially with kids with CVI. If they don't know how to do that, same thing with the physical, real objects. >>Sara: Right. And there's definitely -- in every move counts, there are a lot of trials. There's a system for determining whether the child is understanding the symbol. And one of the things is yes. You don't just present all favored items. You present things that you know they do not like. If they avoid that one, you know they know the symbol for that thing. Scott Baltisberger and I used to do a presentation where we would have these two completely abstract symbols that didn't mean anything. We made them up. And we would have a volunteer come up to the front of the room and we would be like, oh, so and so is going to choose between a chocolate bar and a glass of vinegar. And then we would give them these two symbols. No matter what they chose, we would say, oh, you chose the vinegar. Here you go, drink up. Of course the person didn't want that and they ended up getting the chocolate bar. Just for volunteering to do that. You know, you have to know what the symbol means before you can know whether you choose it or not. This one is just the objects that are there. Pretty concrete. Unless the child didn't have an experience with one of these things, then, you know, or both of them, then they couldn't make the choice. So let's go on to the next slide. >>Lynne: We have about five or six, seven minutes, Sara. >>Sara: Oh, my goodness! Moving from unconventional to conventional communication. This is more like you can play turn-taking games. You can model and practice ways to initiate. Like if I want to grab somebody's hand and pull them somewhere, I might first say, hey. And tap them on the shoulder. I might start to point at things or, you know, I might start to hand objects to someone instead of just grabbing them. So these are all kinds of ways where you can start to communicate in a more conventional way. Handing an object is actually conventional if the person knows what the object is. I think we use it all the time in our lives. So when you're moving from unconventional, you're having calendar conversations or scheduled conversations and they're longer. You're spending more time on the actions, on the objects, on the previewing of an activity that's coming up. Because you're talking about an activity outside of the activity before it happens. You're communicating about it. You're starting to introduce this symbolic kind of communication. So let's go to the next slide. When symbolic communication starts, the concrete symbols, they look like the things that they are. So the banana and the two plates. They look like, they smell like, they basically are the thing they are. Once somebody gets used to that part of it, then you can take a piece of it and you can glue it to something and it becomes a partial -- you know, it's part of the object that's the next step before I learn a symbol is going to -- something that's more abstract is going to stand for an object. An in-between thing is part of that object is the symbol for it. That way you can be smaller and you can use it to communicate in more situations. So then there's abstract symbols that they don't look and feel like or move or smell like what they represent. Like a drawing or a photograph or a spoken word or written word. And then on the next slide -- I'm rushing. The child shows that they understand a symbol by labeling it or handing it to another person and performing a next step. This is symbolic communication. And this is a time when devices would probably be considered, because the child knows that the symbol represents an activity and they know there's a communication partner involved. And, you know, part of understanding a symbol is associating it with a bunch of concepts with experience. You know, there's only communication when there's another person to communicate with. Let's go to the next slide. >>Lynne: Let's watch the video. >>Sara: Oh, yeah. This actually was -- a tiny bit of this was a great video, and it was in one of the commercials at the beginning. So this is a favored activity. These two already have a relationship. They know each other well. They have a positive relationship. And you'll see they're moving from unconventional to conventional communication. There are object symbols and then there are signs and gestures and facial expressions on the part of the -- some of them are intentional, some of them are unintentional, perhaps. And there's a lot of turn-taking and pacing. Let's just watch this. It's pretty quick. [ Video ] >>What are we going to do first today? What do you want to do? Wait, did you just sign "music"? Can we try that again? Music? Yes, we can sign music. And dance. You want to dance? That is great! Let's talk about what kind of music do you want to hear? Do you want to listen to it on the Bluetooth or the joy player? You want the Bluetooth? You load it right in the box. That is how you do it. [ End of video ] >>Sara: He didn't have her push away The Joy Player. But that would be an opportunity to say no joy player. I like Bluetooth. But sometimes that's just the way it goes. Is there anything else that you noticed in that video? Well somebody asked if when somebody talks to themself is that when communication can happen? Hmm. >>Lynne: I don't think you're going to be sharing, you know, information with yourself. Self-talk is very self-soothing and self-regulating. >>Sara: Yeah. They might be practicing using, you know, language sounds, and that's kind of a neat thing about it. But I don't know whether -- it might be kind of unintentional communication if they're talking out loud to themself and you're overhearing what they're doing. Clicks and chats has a great guide for AT and thinking about communication. So there is a list of things that you can go through. Do you know what that person likes? That's always the first thing we do. Find out what they like. What they don't like. Do you know their communication method? And there are ways to find this earlier before this AT assessment in the every move counts, there are things you can do. Do you know the symbol system that best matches the individual's ability? That is also explored in every move counts and also tangible symbols system as an assessment in there to find out the best symbol system. That's Phil Swigert. And then is the individual consistently and predictably satisfied with the consequences when choice is presented in association with a symbol? That's the undesired object or picture or whatever it is. >>Lynne: Sara, could I interjectke since we only have a minute left, there is a statement by Shelby I do want to talk about. This is all in your handout. Is it okay with you if we switch gears? >>Sara: Yeah, this is the last slide and then we just have resources, so it's perfect. >>Lynne: Shelby, you talked about concrete symbols being the only way the child can communicate. Typically we start with a concrete symbol. If they're ready for symbolic thinking, which some kids are not yet. If they are ready, we start with concrete symbols. And then we usually discover that language -- or communication comes in like a waterfall. It's like the flood gates are opened. You have opened the dam and now the child understands that communication, they can have agency and interact with the people in their world. Concrete symbols usually then progress to tactile symbols, which then can progress to like even print or Braille. If they have no vision. Or pictures, if they have some vision. Print. And so, you know, we typically always want to not stop in the journey of communication because our kids, you know, they need help with it. And so we always kind of push the envelope. >>Sara: And those opportunities to practice communicating with another person when you're at the schedule or calendar. When you have those objects to communicate about. You know, you're using actions on the objects to communicate. You're talking to another person. You're talking about how it made you feel. I'm happy this is happening. So hopefully all those things are happening at once and not just handing an object to a person, because that would be very limiting. Yeah, I agree. >>Lynne: Thank you, everyone. >>Sara: Yeah. Check out the resources, if you're interested in the kinds of things we were talking about. They helped us so much when we were in the classroom learning all of this. And very concrete. Very, very good resources that we found to be really helpful.