TSBVI Coffee Hour: Coaching vs. Consulting: What's the Difference? 2/8/2021 >> Hello, welcome everyone. We'll wait a couple of monitor as everybody into the room. We'll make everybody panelists and attendees so we can see all your questions. We love to see where everyone is from while we wait as well if you want to put that in the chat. Alabama. Kansas City. Colorado. New York City. Dallas. Pennsylvania, Canada. The Dallas area. Fort Worth, Crowley, Albuquerque. Wichita Falls. Alabama. Kansas City, Colorado. More Fort Worth. Houston, San Antonio, Grand Prairie. Canada. >> And we can see the little pop up in the middle of your PowerPoint. I'm not sure if that's something -- >> Marina: I don't know how to -- >> To turn that off. I'm not sure either. >> We've got Idaho and Waco. Nevada. Vegas. Mexico, welcome. >> It's not that big of a deal, Marina, but it might be distracting during the presentation. So I thought I'd mention it now. >> All right. So we'll start with a few announcements so we can get going. If you have a question or comment while the presenter is speaking, please post that in the chatbox and make sure it says to all panelists and attendees except for times when she asks us to put things in different places and she'll explain that. Your microphones and cameras are automatically muted so you don't have to worry about that. The handout for today's session will be shared in the chat for immediate viewing and will also be available for later viewing along with the recording of this and past coffee hour sessions shared through a link on our coffee hour page. Once you're on the coffee hour page you will scroll down to under the listed sessions where it says business and new, TSBVI outreach coffee hour archives and it will take you to the links, handouts, presentations and chat information. To obtain your CEUs you will respond to the evaluation that will be emailed to you from our registration website. You will enter the code given at the end of today's session and the CEU certificate will automatically generate upon completion of that evaluation. There's no opening code, only a closing code and it will be given at the end of today's presentation. We'll start the presentation at 3:55 to give the code and announcements. I'm happy to introduce today's presenter to you, Dr. Marina McCormick. >> Marina: Hi, Kaycee. I'm going to go back to sharing my screen. All right. Are you seeing the panel or do you just see the PowerPoint now? >> I just see the PowerPoint. Let me type something in the chat. Okay. No, I didn't see that come up. >> Marina: Perfect. Y'all let me know if you see anything weird while I'm going through the presentation. Don't be afraid to stop me. Thank you so much to TSBVI for inviting me pack to another coffee hour session with all of you. I always love talking about coaching and consulting. It's one of my favorite topics. So hopefully by the end of our hour it will be one of your favorites too. So here is our roadmap for our time together. We're going to review the definitions that I discussed back in November and even if you weren't there, no worries. We'll also take a deeper dive to look at what some key differences are between coaching and consultation. We'll take a look at a scenario together so that we can identify those key differences and then we'll also discuss how roles change depending on different situations. Then hopefully we'll then have time for questions. All right. So let's review. So I don't know if you're like me, but I assume you are and you've probably September since November. So what are -- you've probably slept since November. So what are some key differences between coaching and consulting? Using a QR scanner on your iPhone or iPad you can scan the code that is on the screen and it will take you to a survey at Menti.com. If you don't have a QR scanner on your phone, no worries. You can open up your browser, preferably Edge or Google Chrome, and visit www.menti.com and enter the code on the screen, 96 05 29. And I'd like for you to answer this question: When you think of consultation, what actions come to mind? And I'm going to bring up a different screen where we can see the word cloud that we create together. Lots of [Garbled audio]. Observations, communication, problem solving. To help families. Supporting. Resources. That word collaboration gets bigger and bigger, right? Lots of you are putting that in. All right, excellent. Okay. Five more seconds. Reflecting. Giving advice. Those are good. Working with teachers. Short-term, definitely. Short-term is very important to the definition of consultation. All right. We'll move on to our next word cloud activity. So totally different QR code, differently new code for Menti.com. All you have to do is hit your back button and it should be good to you to enter in the new code, which is 59 20 10 1. And this time I would like for you to think of well, what is coaching? When I think of coaching what actions come to mind? I'll give you a couple of seconds to scan the code. And let take a look at the word cloud you're creating this time. Encouraging. Modeling. Support. Guide. Oooh, yay. Direct service. Cheering, dialogue. We still have collaboration in there, demonstration, asking questions, but it looks like our top three or four are encouraging, modeling, support and guide. Very cool. All right. So y'all hit upon a lot of good see differences, so definitely better man me remembering a lot of that information from November. But to review very quickly, coaching is, as we saw on the word cloud, it's about guiding. It's about facilitating. We're looking at helping our clients understand what the truth is for them. Not so much how we see it. And guiding them and building their capacity. We're looking at internally driven growth. We want our clients, whether they be teachers, parents or other co-workers, to build their capacity, right? And we want to respect the expertise that these other individuals bring to the table. With consulting individuals it is a little different. We are about sharing the information. This is almost like a one-way street where we are concerned about our client's execution of certain tasks. We're looking at providing direct instruction to them on particular topics, helping our clients solve a problem. When it comes to outside expertise, we as the consultant are the outside expertise providing that to the client. We are also taking the approach of "I know.." I know how to fix your job, the client. Any questions on these before we move on. Okay. As part of preparing for today I asked Kaycee to share out a survey with our community to see how you're currently using coaching and consultation and practice. So let's take a look at what you entered. The first was provide an example of a situation when you use a consulttative approach. And you can see on the screen just a sample of some of the things that were entered into the survey. I want you to put a Y if you agree, yes, this is definitely a situation where I would use a consulttative approach. An N if it's no. No, I don't think that a consulttative approach is appropriate for that particular situation. Or a D if you think it depends and you need more details. So observing in a classroom or in a home setting, what do you think? And Kaycee, if you can tell me what the majority is that you're seeing. >> They vary so far. N, d, yes, yes, yes, yes. >> Marina: All right. Let's see what I said. I put that it depends. What is the purpose of the observation. Is the purpose that maybe I'm observing a teacher as she's trying to implement a new strategy and I have a video recording happening at the same time so that later she and I will look at it together so that I can guide her through the same things that I saw. Perhaps that would be coaching. Or am I observing because I want to see whether or not that teacher is doing the strategy appropriately and I'm going to tell her when it's over what some -- what some glows are and what some grows are for her. In that case it's more consulting than coaching. So it just depends on what is purpose, what is the approach that I want to take. What about explaining why a particular instructional strategy is needed? Yes, no or depends for that consulttative approach. >> Several yeses have come insofar. More yeses. A depends. >> Marina: I totally agree. >> Yes, yes, yes. >> Marina: Yes, yes, yes. And why would that be? Because as a consultant I'm the authority. Right? I'm the one concerned with getting my client to do a particular action. So absolutely, explaining why a particular instructional strategy is needed would be a consulttative approach. What about telling staff how they should work with students? >> A few yeses. A depends. A no. Some more yeses. Another depends, depends. >> Marina: I said depend. Yeah, I said depends. So I get the depends on how you tell staff how Ticket-to-Work with students. So not knowing the context of this entry, if I'm telling them from a position of authority and I'm not opening this up to discussion, then yes, that would be consulting. If I'm telling staff how they should be working with students and I'm doing it in a way I'm making a suggestion, I could see that being more approaching. Again, purpose, approach are important. There was a comment here which we're going to explore a little bit more in just a moment, but think about this statement. When there is a lot of complexity involved I used a consulttative approach. Is that a yes, a no or a depends? >> Yes, no, depends. >> Marina: I totally agree. For that one I put a hard no, and you will learn why I put that hard no in just a few moments. What about following up on how parents or teachers are implement is strategies? Yes, we would do consulttative approaches, no, or depends? >> Yes, depends, yes, no, yes, no, yes, yes. No, no, depends. I put depends. Again, it's all about that approach. Am I going to be direct with parents and say, you know, this is how I think you ought to help Johnnie wear his hearing aids at home. Or am I going to approach that in a more coaching manner where I say tell me a little bit about what some of the problems are that you're having in terms of getting Johnnie to wear his hearing aids for you at home? Totally different. Answering questions about what I do. Yes, no, depends. >> Yes, depends, yes, yes, yes, yes. >> Marina: Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. So again this is definitely a consulttative approach because it's about authority and you being the expert on the situation. And then providing training to others on the team, this one should be easy. Yes, no, depends. >> Yes, yes, yes. >> Marina: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. So we've gotten some clarity on what is the consultation. And now we'll go through coaching. So on the screen we'll go through these as well, yes, this is definitely something that I would use coaching for. No, I wouldn't use coaching for that situation at all. Or depends. Teaching Braille, yes, no, depends. >> Depends. A couple of no's. Another depends. >> Marina: I said no. And I said no because this is about execution of a task where we are helping people execute in describing text into Braille. So while we may have a coaching manner in the way that we support the individuals that we're teaching, more often than not this is more a consulttative approach. Mentoring a paraprofessional who is working with a student, what do you think? Yes, coaching, no, consulttative or depends? >> All yeses coming insofar. >> Marina: I totally agree. Definitely a big yes. What about helping with particular instructional approaches? YND. >> A couple of yeses, a depends. Yes. A couple more depends. >> Marina: I put depends. Again, going back to purpose and approach. What about reviewing data for the Little Room? >> I have a yes and two no's so far. >> Marina: I put depends. And the reason why is that approach I think is critical. If I'm sitting with a teacher and we're looking at the data for the Little Room and I am the one in a consultant role saying, you know, here's what the numbers are. This is the story that these numbers are telling me about the student. Then no, this isn't a coaching approach, this is more consulting. However, if I sit beside that teacher and I say, so what do you see in terms of the numbers? What is the story that you're seeing? That would be more coaching, when I'm asking the questions and getting that teacher to tell me her perspective. What about teaching how to present materials to a student? YND. >> Several yeses. A couple of depends. >> Marina: I said depends too. And the reason why is because I thought for me with that statement what really matters is what kind of materials are we talking about and what kind of presentation do we mean? For example, if I'm training a teacher on how to use an assistive listening device to present orally to a student, I may only need 30 minutes to do that with one session. That's not something I'm going to do over the long-term. But if I'm looking at perhaps how to make something accessible, how to take text materials, for example, and make them accessible through a CCTV or JAWS, that might take a little bit more time. I might be coaching general education teachers on that frequently. So I may take more of a coaching approach, it just really depends I think on the presentation and the materials. What about teaching how to increase student engagement. What do you think? YND. Mostly depends so far. >> Marina: I said the same thing. I think that depends because of the comment we saw in the previous slide, the complexity. What is it exactly that we're going to narrow down there with regards to student engagement. So as we've gone through all of these examples, you've heard me say probably purpose, approach, but at the end of the day what is really making the difference between all of these situations? How do you know as a practitioner when to use a consulting approach or when to use a coaching approach? So in the chat I'd like for you to answer this question for me. Is there a distance between competency and excellence? What do you think? >> I've had a few yeses come insofar. >> Marina: So I'm going to pick on one of you. Ryan Scott, you said yes. Could you put in the chat why you think there is a distance between competency and excellence? So Ryan said I think you can be competent, but maybe not excellent. All right. So thumb's up if you all agree with that statement that you can be competent, but maybe not excellent. >> Some yeses coming in. >> Marina: Thank you, Ryan, for expanding on your answer for all of us. It looks like you're in very good company. So I will tell you that Atul Gawande would say not necessarily. So for those of you who may be unfamiliar, this is Dr. Atul Gawande. He is a well-known surgeon, a writer, a public health researcher. You may have seen him in his TED talks. And he has been quoted as saying there's only a distance between competence and excellence because there are complexity. So for example, when we look at different tasks, sometimes we take very particular steps with regards to those tasks that can be broken down that everyone can learn to follow in the form of a protocol. Surgeons do this regularly. They have a patrol for how they are going to enter the operating room. And they have some steps that they need to follow in a particular order. So they took something that is rather complex that certainly most of these certains are competent people, right? But they made sure that there was excellence before they ever enter into the operating room because they're making sure that they're meeting all of these particular steps before they step through the door. So that's just one example. So when we start to think about this particular idea, complexity, creating that distance between excellence and excellence, we -- competence and excellence, we start to look at the tasks we have to do on an everyday basis in terms of technical challenges and adaptive challenges. And this is important because when we started to classify tasks in terms of technical and adaptive, we then know what kind of approach we need to take, whether that be consulting or coaching. So technical challenges, they can be defined as a problem that people within the organization have the know-how to fix. There are systems that are in place to support improvement efforts regarding those challenges. And typically we can solve these problems over a short duration of time. So I've included for you the Wi-Fi symbol. I am sure that most of you throughout this pandemic have had the technical challenge of your Wi-Fi not being good or being spotty. So you know how to solve that technical challenge in a very short period of time. Maybe you have to restart your computer. Maybe you have to restart your router. Maybe you have to switch from the hard line to the mi-fi. But you have ways to quickly solve that problem without any issue. Adaptive challenges on the other hand, those are totally different. Those are beasts. They can require people to be a part of the solution so it's not something that you can just walk in and say oh, I know how I'm going to fix that. It requires leadership. It can't be solved simply by consulting with an expert or relying on what you currently know about the situation. And professionals often have to receive some sort of professional learning, draining, coaching, in order to know what they need to do and how they ought to do it. Sometimes adaptive challenges require systems change in order to happen for the work to be done. And then they also take a long time to address. And so again, throughout this pandemic, one adaptive challenge is learning new learning management systems, which is why we have the picture of a seesaw here. It's not enough to just tell teachers to take their instruction from the classroom and then put it into the virtual format and by the way, we all purchased seesaw and now upload all of your lessons into that and start grading. There's way more that goes into how to effectively use Seesaw for instruction. So this has certainly been an adaptive challenge we have all shared throughout this experience. So I would recommend that before you assist a client, whether it be a parent, a teacher, maybe even a student, ask yourself a couple of questions to know whether or not you're dealing with a technical challenge or an adaptive challenge. Because technical challenges are consulttative approaches. Adaptive challenges, though, are going to require coaching. So ask yourself, for the client's problem are these outcomes short or long-term? How complex is your client's problem? Is it something that you could fix quickly or is it something that's going to require more intensive support, perhaps a couple of months, maybe the whole year to address? And if there is a lot of complexity involved, how can you reduce that complexity? And without getting too far into the weeds, Dr. Jim knight, he is well-known for the instructional playbook, how coaches create instructional play books and take away the mystery of good high quality instruction. So when we think of our challenges as teachers of the visually impaired, teachers of the deaf, teachers of the DeafBlind, I want you to consider how can I take the complexity of building a calendar system for a student, for example, and making a protocol. Think of my example back with the operating room and the surgeons. How can I task analyze making a calendar and breaking it down into steps that anyone can do? So that they can achieve excellence when it comes to implementing a calendar system? Any questions on this? or any comments? I see a comment that says following procedures doesn't mean that you are being excellent. I agree that that's a fair statement, however, if we can agree that these procedures mean that you have covered everything in regards to doing a particular task and doing it well, and we remove the mist behind that, we can get people to excellence. Often times what is keeping people from being excellent is all of the hidden know-how that goes into a particular task. And so we want to take the mystery away from it. What is it that makes you great? What is it that makes your implementation of a calendar system better than say someone who is a no advice and that's what we want -- novice and that's what we want to build in terms of a procedure. We want the mastery level implementation of how to do a calendar system with a student. And in that way we can promote excellence. So excellent point there. All right. So let's explore an example. It will be the same scenario, but two totally different approaches. So looking at some of these situations that were shared in the survey, I chose one to model how you might do a consulttative approach or how you could do the same issue with a coaching approach. So here's my friend Kristin from the Region 4 Education Service Center. And she will be playing the part of the parent and I will be playing the part of consultant/coach. While you're watching the video I would like for you to be noting down for video one, what are you noticing? Video 2 what's different because we will have a Menti.com activity right after. Give me one moment. I just need to pull it up. >> Kathi is here to instruct Heather, the mother of two and a half-year-old Manuel. Together they're going to discuss how to read a book between Manuel and Heather, and Kathi has been working with Heather for six months. I will be Kathi and Kristen will be Heather. >> Hello, Heather. Good morning. Today I thought that we could discuss reading books. You know, it's very important for parents to read together with their children. It's really never too early to start reading with your child. >> Okay. >> So today I brought a book with me, a big guy took my ball, a classic in my own house. And I was wondering if I could show you how to -- I would like to model for you how you can read this book with Manuel. If I were there I would ask him to come up on the couch and maybe sit with me and we might say things like wow, you're such a big boy. You're getting so big. I'm looking forward to reading this book together with you. >> Oh, okay. I got it. But you know, I'm always afraid he's going rip up the pages of the book. >> Well, that is a common concern for many parents. To solve that problem you just find books that have thicker pages so that it's easier for the child to turn the page. This book actually does have thicker pages that you can -- that you can use to make it easier for your child. >> Oh, good idea. Good idea. >> So after we get on to the couch, what I would do is I would see if he wanted to help us hold the book. You know, from there he can turn the pages and I could read together with him. You know, you can go buy the story or you can make up a story to go along with the pictures. We really just want to follow Manuel's lead. So if he doesn't want to be reading the actual text, we can just go to whatever page he wants to go to and read from there. The key here is that we're trying to develop interest in books, interest in reading. So how about you maybe go and get Manuel and bring him over and I can demonstrate for you from here how you would read a book with him. >> here Manuel, let's look at the book! >> Marina: All right. So that was video one. Now let's see video 2. Are you ready? Okay, I'll share my screen again. So this time this is the same scenario again, but from a coaching approach. >> In this scenario Kathi is going to help Heather with the same issue as she did in the consultation example, only this time Kathi is going to use a coaching approach. Again, I will be playing the part of Kathi and Kristin will be playing the part of Heather. >> Heather, last time that I visited you mentioned that you really want Manuel to be ready for school, ready for a head start classroom when he turned three years old. You also said that you wanted him to be able to read and write as soon as he can. >> Yeah. I want him to do good in school. I know he's still too little to really know how to read and write, but I think he's really smart so I want to help him as soon as I can. >> Yeah, for sure, Manuel is a smart little boy. It's never really too early to start thinking about these things and how we can better help our children learn. How do you think -- how do you think young children learn how to read? >> I guess when their teacher or their mom or dad teaches them their letters and then they know how to sound them out and they can put them together? >> Definitely. So one thing that we know from research that works with children Manuel's age to help them start to learn about reading is parents and children reading together. >> Oh, yeah. Well, I did that with my daughter. But Manuel just wants to tear up magazines or books whenever he get them in his hands. He doesn't seem to be interested in them. >> Well, what else do you have to help him learn to read books with you? >> Well, I guess I need to be with him when he's looking at the books for one thing instead of just giving them to him. >> Well, that's certainly a place to start. And then you could even show him how to look at books and read with them. What else do you need to do? >> I've seen some of those books that have those thick pages, you know, like made of cardboard or those board books are plastic or something harder that he won't be able to tear them up. I guess I could try those. >> Yes. So starting with books that are harder to tear would enable him to use the books and turn the page without tearing them up himself. >> I don't have any of those books with thick pages, but I do like to go garage sale shopping and yard sales, so I guess I could look for some there. >> Yeah. But how how we also have been using and talking about things that Manuel likes? And we want -- you know, ultimately we want to follow his interest with things to learn. So how do you think that approach would apply to the books? >> You mean like the way he likes trains and animals? Because he really likes those type of things. >> Yeah. So making sure when we're going to garage sales that we're specifically looking, yeah, definitely, for those things. For books that are related to trains and animals that would help Manuel be more interested in learning how to read. >> Good idea. I will try that. >> Marina: And scene. All right. All right. I hope you were taking notes because now it's time for our next menti activity. Again, you can scan the QR code or type goo Menti.com the code that is on the screen, 97 17-02 5. And I want to know what did you think was different between video 1 and video 2? I'll give you a moment to either scan or to enter the code and then I'm going to switch to the other screen. So there was telling versus leading. Mom talked more in video 2. The parent was the expert. In video 2 the consultant asked more leading questions so the client could come up with ideas. Let me scroll down so I can see what y'all are post willing. Video one was giving advice and suggestions. Video two was having the parent answer their own questions. I love that. I love how this person put mom in quotes. In the second video you let mom reflect on how to help Manuel gathering more info from the parent. Absolutely. Give you 30 more seconds to get your input in. Anything else that you may have noted? This person said video one had the consultant, I believe, breaking down how-to's in specific steps, but in video two the parent was generating the ideas with the guiding questions from the coach. So we're seeing a thing in your responses, right, that one key difference is the telling versus asking the questions. It's the same problem, right, but I love how most of you are capturing in your comments how more involved mom was. You may have heard me say earlier the heavy lifting. What is doing the heavy lifting? In video one the consultant is doing the heavy lifting. In the consultant role I had to come up with all the ideas and the suggestions and I'm telling the parent how to do what it is that I -- I think is best for her to do. But I shouldn't be doing the heavy lifting. Why should I not be doing the heavy lifting? Put your answer in the chat. Why should I as the consultant or -- not be doing the heavy lifting in this scenario. >> Ryan said because the parent is the expert. >> Marina: That's one question. >> Myra says the parent knows the child best. Foster independence. Reliability. Want the parents to have ownership. >> So all of that is true but the deeper reason is especially in this virtual environment who is the person who has to work with that child? Is it me as the teacher of the blind, with the teacher of the deaf? Is it me that is working with that child on a daily basis? It's mom. And so mom, I need to build mom's capacity. I need to help mom learn how to read the book with Manuel. So if I am doing all the telling and I'm just sharing all of this knowledge with mom and how-to's, that's not really building her capacity. Helping mom think through the problem herself. Helping mom use that expertise that you all have mentioned on her -- on her own is more likely to lead to implementation of the intervention that I'm wanting as a practitioner. All right. But one thing to keep in mind is yes, we may assume that as a teacher of the deaf, as a teacher of the visually impaired or as a teacher of the DeafBlind that we are always in a consultant or a coaching role, but that's not true. We really do all take turns being a coach and being a compliant, being a consultant and being and being a consultee. So it's important to remember that everyone on our team, including students have their own strengths and talents that serve the client's needs. For many situations the client is often the student, right? I'm consulting with this person because we are serving the client, the student. But sometimes students be the coach and maybe I'm the client. So we'll take a look at that in a moment. But any person who consults or coaches may be the shrine in the next situation. And making sure everyone has an understanding of their own roles and responsibilities is critical. So this information that you're learning today about what constitutes consulting, what constitutes coaching. This is something I would share with all members of your team so they recognize when they're in that particular role so that they can capitalize on those moments. I promise you it's our final Menti.com activity so make it a good one. But I'd like for you to think through how these roles and responsibilities can change. So take a look at each one of these columns, consultant, consultee and client. So any of the professionals listed under any of these three columns could be moved into a different column. So first I'd like for you to imagine a scenario using one professional from each of the three columns. So for example, and you're not allowed to take my scenario, it's just for an example. But a possible scenario could be an elementary student on the autism spectrum visits with her school counselor because the school bus driver will not allow her to sit in the same seat on the bus each morning. So I took that elementary student from consultant, I came up with a way that they might work with someone in the consultee column to then work with a client. So once you have a scenario in mind, I'd like for you again to go to Menti.com and enter the code that you see on the screen, 87 08 37 0 to share your scenario. I am going to leave my screen up for just a little bit longer so that you can maybe break down a couple of the professionals that you want to link together for a scenario before I switch my screen. I will give you -- actually, let me look. I will give you one minute before I switch my screen. >> So hopefully you've written down three professionals, one from each column. I'm going to switch my screen now. So let's see what those scenarios are. For the person who entered classroom special education educator, can you tell me how they're working as a consulting client. School nurse consulting with PE teacher will student needing breaks due to health condition. Okay. That's a good one. Oh, I like that one, parent educator teaching the tech specialist about how the preschooler naturally communicates. >> Special education teacher explaining accommodations to a resource teacher for a student, I would assume. Okay. Social worker is meeting with a teacher to support reading specialist to consult about making a hotline on a student. Oh, that's a good one. Okay. Give you 30 more seconds to enter in the scenario. Oh, the COMS teaches the PE teacher about intervention for sports. Yes. The school gym teacher -- it disappeared. Where did it go? School gym teacher asks orientation and mobility specialist about physical limitations. Okay. So I'm assuming that for the ones that don't have a client listed that you're linking them to a student. All right. Good job. Okay. So what questions can I answer for you with the time that we have left before we turn it over to Kaycee? All right. If there are no questions, here is my contact information. Feel free to call me or email me any time. I'm happy to help you problem solve through your coaching and consultation problems and practice. Thank you for having me, TSBVI. >> Thank you so much, Marina. Join us for story time, create meaning of the experience stories with your units on February 11th with Deanna Peterson and Kathi Garza. There will not knot be a session on the 15th due to president's day but we will be back on the 18th with OT review of sensory processing with Lisa Rickettes, who is onOT. And Active Learning and mobility with Kate Hurst and Chris Tabb on the 22nd of this month. Check out our coffee hour website for upcoming registration information. Again, to obtain your CEUs for today you will respond to the evaluation that will be emailed to you from our registration website, escworks. You will enter the code And the CEU certificate will automatically generate upon completion of that evaluation. Also the handouts and recording from this and past sessions are available through a link in our coffee hour page. You will scroll down to the outreach coffee hour archives. It's a it will take you to the recordings and handouts, transcripts and chat information. On the evaluation you receive from ESC works there are two boxes, number 10 and 11, that say additional comments you would like to share with the presenter and with the event planning committee. Please let us know in those boxes if the times and dates that coffee hour is offered is working for your schedule or if you have other suggestions. And we always love to hear your ideas for future Coffee Hours. I want to remind you all that the mental health symposium for deaf and DeafBlind is coming up. That's hosted by the Texas mental health initiative for deaf youth. It will be April 22nd and 23rd. And I will drop that registration information into the chat. Thanks for Dr. Marine McCormick for being here today, and thank you on all for participating.