Please see me as the person I am. Bernadette van den Tillaart & Gunnar Vege 2015 Deafblind Symposium; Austin, TX Transcript Start [Silence] Fade up from black. Animation: Text for TSBVI transform into braille cells for TSBVI. Fade to black. Fade up from black. Chris Montgomery: Bernadette van den Tillaart, Gunnar Vege, take it away, you guys. [Applause] Gunnar Vege: Okay. Can you hear me? Perfect. I'm-- I'm proud. Somebody in Texas would want to listen to me. And Bernadette, of course. That's nice. And I'm the one who's going to start this presentation. I just need to say, I think, that what I have been doing since 1983 is working in the part of the field with congenital deafblindness. And my main challenge-- my main try has always been to try to meet my students, to make them able to reach their level of language, which has been very, very, very difficult. And I know that I-- I was not alone. I am not, not alone-- about that. I still need to learn, I still need to learn what kind of a way does a person with congenital deafblindness has to walk towards acquisition of both social and communication-- communicative development, and reaching the level of developmental-- of language. What I should like to start with, is to tell you a story. A story that happened in me some years ago, when I had started to work as a deafblind consultant. I heard about a man, 25 years old, deafblind caused by what is called Moebius syndrome; totally blind, hearing residual which made him hear some sound like singing in his ear. One day they told me-- what should be the next step now-- yes. That they did have a man who was shouting. That was my way of thinking of it. 'See me as the person I am,' he shouted, louder and louder, day in and day out. As time was passing he shouted while hitting, biting, and pulling their hair. Hitting and biting himself. But no one saw him. Every day they always staring at day schedule that had been approved, at the clock, the time schedule, giving objects, cues, and signs. No one was really interested in what he had in mind. No one saw him as the person he was. And I assure you it was not the plans that was the problem. The plan is important. I think what was the problem, is that the people around him, after a while, become more and more directed towards the plans, and less and less directed towards him. What he's trying to say. Because he started in his way, to communicate. That there was no one really listening. When he tried to refuse some of the activities, for example. So, he started to push. After a while, he started to knock them, knock them with his forehead. I think it was almost no one who really was searching for-- for an impression of him-- an understanding of him, unless one little weak voice, which I met the first day I entered the residential unit where he was living. This was in the morning. He was still laying in the bed. Actually, he was very often laying in bed, long, long time during the day. He refused to stand up. If they tried to get him up, he began to hit again. This morning I could hear a singing voice, when I came outside his room, his bedroom, and I bent in; and it was a beautiful, beautiful little moment. The sun was shining into the room. He was laying in the bed, and the caregiver was close to his ear singing for him. And he was laying, 'Ooh wee, ooh wee, ooh wee.' That was the sound he used every time when he was satisfied. And she stopped singing, raised her head, waited a little minute. He looked for her head, brought it down to his ear again. And of course he asked for more singing? Yes, of course. So she would singing again. And he was, 'Ooh wee, ooh wee, ooh wee,' together with her. Finished her singing, raised her head again, and again he took her head, but now she stopped, she freezed in a way, and she was looking at me. 'What I'm going to do?' What are we going to do? What do you think he's asking for? 'Singing?' Yes, shouldn't you? 'No. You know it is decided that we'll shall only sing twice before he's going to-- for supper. My gosh! No one saw him as the person he really was, just for a short, short moment. And then again, my own plans, their own plans became more important than the voice of him. Then, something happened, this was in the wintertime, and during the spring it became just more and more difficult. It was less and less people who was willing to work with him, because he sometimes became very vicious. So then they started their summer vacationing. Two persons decided, 'We have to try, we have to try to change our approach. We have to try to look for him-- have to try every day, every meeting, to see what do you have in mind? What are you thinking of? What-- what are you now-- what are your intentions directed to towards, now?' And they really tried hard to cultivate this relational space and attentions, together with him. And something changed a little bit. Their way of acting. They focused on co-presence, the captivating each other's attention in the mindful presence of the here and now. It was so beautiful to look at them. From being persons who always tried to direct him toward their plans of what was important, for them. Oh, I could-- I could look into the room and see them sitting, tied together, tactually exploring something that she has found interesting, to activate himself with. And sometimes when they were like that, I could hear him again, 'Ooh wee, ooh wee, ooh wee.' And this sharing of experiences, thoughts and emotions, through the sense of touch, was just wonderful. And the small steps to start to change his approach, too. And they were reading his tactile expressions. They were listening to him. In this way, they became aware of who this young man really was. And, you know, he became more and more aware of who 'they' were. And the big change was that he stopped laying in the bed in the morning and refused staying up. Couple of months after autumn, when he heard, with his residual hearing, that people-- the staff people were coming on work, he jumped off the bed, up to the room where they were all together, asking for coffee, to go back to his room? No. To sit down, staying together, having new, nice experience of being together with other persons. They had really changed his life during a short time. In a way, I'm thinking, they was cultivating the relation. They was making greenhouse conditions for the development of a self that started to believe, 'Me as a person, worth of the attention of other persons.' Now, we would like to try one thing. It is a new little story. Because how to stay together, how to really try to look for the other person and the other person's experience of the here and now. This is what we're going to talk about the rest of the time. I should like to tell you one little more story, and we would like to make the first session of it like a role play. I think the big challenge, now, is the size of the room. It will be a little bit difficult for at least the people on this and this end. But that's how it is. We try. Okay? What was-- what was happening one day, and this is, again, from real experience. I entered another residential unit. Just when I entered, I saw a congenital deafblind man-- or let us say a woman-- deafblind caused from rubella syndrome. He was working in the room and suddenly he detected an apple on the table. [Silence] Right then, caregiver arrives into the room. Saw the deafblind person get the apple, and he run-- almost run-- he was very eager-- run towards him and said, 'Ooh, you want to eat! Yes, just a moment.' [Silence] 'Ho, ho, here. Now you can eat.' [Silence] That was what happened. Hmm. It was really nice caregiver coming in. Really wanted to-- to supply the deafblind man with something to treat. He was sure, but he didn't check out. Could it be-- another way? That's what I was thinking afterwards. Could it be another way? To stay together with this man-- this woman. Let's try. please let me try. Okay? [Silence] [sniffing] [apple crunching] [pop] Okay. [Applause] Could that be a possibility? Bernadette Van den Tillaart: So, to initiate and sustain such an experience-- if you think about it, what you saw, or if you remember your own contact with persons who are deafblind-- congenital deafblind-- would it be a challenge for you? To share an experience in this manner? Because what kind of communication partner do I need to be to create such experiences? You really want the focus on expressing-- being the experience really a crucial element of the sustained interaction with all of the persons who are congenital deafblind. So, as you see, going beyond vision and hearing. Like this morning so beautifully explained to us, about the sense of touch and the tactile sense is really the sense that matters. And although the sense of touch is not too familiar with us-- we use it in different ways than we are using as babies, you know, and certain relationships, when we are with people who are deafblind, we have to rely on tactile sense. And in using the tactile sense, there are cultural elements, personal elements. You know, you, yourself may be very comfortable with it, the deafblind person maybe very comfortable with or being careful, then there's also cultural issues. Like private space. We are both from countries originally from-- me at least-- that in the supermarket, and you're having your cart and you would do the shopping, and you would at the same time keep the private space that they have-- in the country that I come from, in the Netherlands-- then we could not even do shopping because the aisle is not wide enough. [ Laughter ] Because there's so many people, so building buildings, so much going on. The whole infrastructure, the buildings, everything, it's related to a very small private space. And when you grow up like that, you're very used to it and it's easy. When you are used to a bigger private space, it's important, of course, to find ways that you still feel comfortable, and you still have your arms that reach out. So the same experiences can happen, just with a little bit more distance. And it's also a process. It's a process with the deafblind persons to see how they are-- interact. So if you look at development of these senses with deafblindness, then, why sometimes is expressive communication not coming along? Why is it sometimes, there is so much stress? It is not because of that person who was deafblind. It is not because of the communication partner. The communication partner has the intention to come into contact. But the point is the deafblindness in such a way that experiencing the world from a deafblind perspective is not what is typical. So, two worlds meet each other and then that's-- that deafblindness is a known, it's a different world, tactile world, and how to find each other. Where to meet, where to find common ground, where to find shared attention, with these two different worlds. And that is where the problem is. It's not in the child. It's not in the educator. So, when we were talking about the example Gunnar told you about-- 'Be present in my world.' Matisse says, 'Silence and solitude are the greatest luxury of life, but all depends on furnishing solitude with life.' So we are talking here about the assumption that life is so full of social contact and so full of activities with other people, that you really appreciate moments of silence, moments of solitude, being mindful about what is happening in the here and now. And we try to find those moments, but we typically are so busy, it's hard to fine. But what, now, if you are a person with deafblindness, and you do not have access to all exciting things, to all of the contacts around you. Then it is the opposite. Then it is that someone, maybe lonely, and silence and solitude are not luxuries, they are barriers. And it doesn't mean that-- that-- there's a difference between loneliness and being alone. Loneliness-- being alone can be very much okay, but feeling alone-- experiencing loneliness, that is a different matter, and that gives a lot of stress in each person, because we are social beings. So, how can we build experience? How can we connect the persons who are deafblind? So that is to the dialogical perspective. how can we build experience, how can we connect with persons who are deafblind. That is from the dialogical perspective. The dialogical perspective-- actually more a framework. And within that framework, it is that, the key idea, 'How do we develop ourselves? How do we develop our identity? How do we connect to the outside world, and to share values, and thoughts, and ideas with other people?' That happens through dialogue. Minimum of two persons-- can be more-- but it happens in dialogues, interexchanges. Let's see for an example. Vege: As I have heard a lot of other people say to me, 'Oh, so after arriving in Texas, it's about what all the blind students-- persons-- have learned you. And that has really been the same for me. I followed one young girl, she was 12 then, to start with, for 10 years, Ingrid. Some of you have seen her in the video Traces-- and we show you afterwards. I learned a lot during the relationship with Ingrid. And what was very interesting was-- because I had a son, Jacob,-- already when I had been together with Ingrid for some years. And I think I acted or thinking like a lot of parents. Intuitively. Doing what parents do. I did not have any kind of a parents teaching program. But I just did it. So, I did not remember when I got Ingrid, what I actually did, because it was intuitive. I was not really theoretically informed, that is not needed as parents. But in my meetings with Ingrid it was important to try to be more informed, because I had to make it in a conscious way, to give her the same conditions. Something happened together with Ingrid. And then I got my next child, Johanna. And because I had detected something together with Ingrid, something that really helped us communicating in new ways, because for the first six, seven years we spent together, we were not able to communicate about the here and now. I tried and I tried and I tried. And I thought, perhaps Ingrid, perhaps it is so that you who are born deafblind, always blind, totally blind and deaf, perhaps you have reached your limit. Perhaps to talk about your hundred signs and to be able to interact about the here and now, perhaps that's what we have to-- to grow now and be happy there. Because it was happy, a lot of times. And there was one day, suddenly succeeded in communicating about something that happened beyond the here and now. And what I detected was that the limitation was not within Ingrid. The limitation was within me as partner-- seeing hearing partner-- to a congenital deafblind child. Because, still in my life, the difference between being seeing-hearing and this tactual world, and the world of touch, was very, very, very wide. The day I detected how we began to communicating about something beyond here and now. It was without my words, without my cultural language, without the signs. It was by use of the impression from yesterday; picking apples, from an apple tree. So when we started once-- intuitively, again, I started, 'Remember, yesterday, you and me? We felt...' and gave her just a little movement, upwards, and lay my hands listening to her. Then she stretched her arm up, like taking the apple and smiling, most delicious smile I've seen, for ever! And then I'm-- affirmed her. Oh, she was so lucky again! 'Finally, tonight, you understand how I express-- impress, how I am in the here and now, and how I am able to express it.' And that's the first step, 'from impression to expression.' Suddenly, I got my Johanna. He she is 11 months. You know during December, we are putting up one, two, three, four lights-- candles. And every time they have done it, in this parental way of doing it, one day in the middle of December I was moving towards the living, with Johanna on my arm. I was in my mind, away to the kitchen. Suddenly, I saw she was looking to the right, to this light standing on the-- on the-- what do you call it? Van den Tillaart: Window sill? Vege: Huh? Van den Tillaart: Window sill or... Vege: No, but let us call it window sill. [ Laughter ] Then I can continue. It's the same. There was not lightning-- not fire on the candles. But Johanna went towards them and made this movement. At that time she did not-- was not able to pronounce any vocal word. She did that movement, and I immediately understood. That Ingrid, now I really understand. You have learned me a lesson. It is not only you who start to express yourself through bodily gestural movements, before the language is really-- really rich-- the language. And then I remember, I once read, researched a book about deaf children's development of language. First-- that was the first sentence-- first they develop gestural, bodily expressions, and then it's cultivated into official language. And the next sentence, it's the same for seeing, hearing children. They are, first, developing a bodily gestural way of expressing themselves. Next, it is cultivated into an oral language. So I thought the next time I want to get-together with Johanna, there was a video camera. I had to try to film it, to see was it by accident, or was it really that she thinking about something, expressing herself. So this is what happened. [Video] Johanna: Ahh, ahh. Vege: [speaking Norwegian] Vege: Then I went to another place in living room. It's a candle, not the same one, but not firing. And I tried to start-- to have a conversation with her. Conversation-- before any cultural language is acquired for her. [Video] Vege: [speaking Norwegian] Vege: Oh, I loved it, because then I understood that this is what we have to do-- together, you and me. I have to enter your world-- of body, touch, movements, emotions. I have to stay together with you and be aware of what can be the next bodily gestural movement to share. So, we can be able to develop our communication, just like the way-- the same way as Johanna, my Jacob, and all other seeing and hearing children does. And you know this-- what is happening in this dialogical approach-- How do I understand? In the shared experience, you saw that-- I, I didn't have to think about how to create a sustained and shared now, she was just looking at it, she was just following and she was just looking to me. I was looking to her, we were paying attention to each other, having a kind of a dialogue. It just happened. And what happened to her? She started to begin to see daddy. Like the man in the-- that started to look at the other persons, trying-- started to be a [Indiscernible], just another way. But, she also started to see herself, because daddy had all the time been a kind of a mirror. Affirming her. Being aware of what she was doing, doing the same thing, like a mirror, so she could be able to see herself as a person; expressing herself as a person who was thinking, as a person who is worthy of the attention of other people, as a person who has a voice, as a person who is developing cognitive agency. And slightly we become aware of the world around us, because mother and father are showing her; they're going into new experiences. It was not only me and you, it was now me and you and the world. It was shared experiences. So both Johanna and me could feel our shared communicative competence. And I should like to tell you a little story, because Johanna is now 16 years old. And this morning I had been so nervous. It's a long time since I was like that. So I sent an image-- an SMS to Johanna. I told her, 'Johanna, I'm soon going to start together with Bernadette. You know, it's a huge room; 350 people. I'm so nervous.' And I was really nervous. I think I got, really, 'Oh, I've no energy left. Am I worth it, to do this?' In a way, I think my feelings were saying. You know what she answered? I will tell you. 'Good luck, daddy. Be great! Be you. And blow them away.' [ Laughter ] 'Tee-hee. Love you.' And you know what happened? Something inside me changed. Johanna was in this way a kind of mirror, helping me to see myself in a little different way. She believed in me. She said that I will be able to do it. It's a process going on from the beginning to the very end. That's why enriching dialogue, enriching a shared and sustained here and now, is so very, very important. Van den Tillaart: So, do you remember sometimes, you had a conversation, and you meet someone, you start talking, and then you exchange, 'How are you?' Exchange some common ideas, and then you delve a little bit deeper, and you share maybe a story, and then sometimes, it feels like there's a disconnect. You're nicely doing the turns and, you know, everything seems to work, but you do not have the idea that what you're trying to convey is received by the other person. Sometimes it can be because the perspective that I'm coming from, and the perspective the other person is coming from, is so different that there is a misunderstanding in whatever words you use. So we know from our daily lives how important it is, if you want to have a real nice conversation, to try to understand and look at the words of other people or the signs of other people, from the perspective-- from the person who utters them. So what do they mean for that person? Maybe those words mean something else than I how would use them. Maybe, I have other connotations, other images about what a person is trying to tell me. And then, if we can negotiate and ask for, show, you know, 'I'm not sure,' then you find out together. And then you find, 'Oh, it's from that perspective. Oh, now I understand you. Oh, yes. I recognize that. I had one experience like that, so how was that for you?' So then you get-- and then you get deeper in the conversations and you meet each other's perspective, and you get to know each other better. So, if you have this conversation, there needs to be a togetherness, two persons being together, but not just one person standing here, the other person standing there. That is not enough. It's really the connection. But, first of all, I, myself, have to be present in myself. In the here and now, who am I? What do I think? What do I feel? What do I experience? Am I aware of that? Am I mindful of what is happening in my body and emotions and how I see the things at that moment. And then when I meet that other person, that person is in his own presence. Then maybe if you have a good conversation, we can create this co-presence, meaning two persons in their own body, emotion, mind, ideas, values, and meeting each other and sharing them, having a co-presence, being together, being directed towards the other person, having attention, real attention to the other person. If you first have attention for and be mindful about what you are and who you are, in that moment, then you also can direct your attention to the other person, and really see who that person is; what emotions, what ideas and thoughts in the here and now, at that moment, that person is. So create that co-presence, being both present, but directed at each other. So it's very important to search for that co-presence. This is not specific just for us or people who are deafblind, it's everyone. But now, if you are a person with deafblindness, and I have my bodily way of doing, like talking, using my hands, having my facial expressions, being who I am here and now; and then there's a person with deafblindness, who has the same for that person's self. How can we now create that co-presence? We have to find each other in a shared perspective. I cannot expect the person with deafblindness to suddenly hear what I say, or look at how my mimics are, but what I can do, as an interaction partner-- and that is my role-- is that I can try, not being skilled, maybe very clumsy, but at least I can try to go to the perspective of the person with deafblindness, and become co-present through the sense of touch. [Silence] Vege: Co-presence is possibly a word some of you don't use very often, or did not use very often earlier, at least. Neither me. Before I started to experience this shared experiences-- this shared and sustained attention-- shared attention with Ingrid. Because I did not have a word for it. I was not, as I said, then, informed-- theoretically informed about what was really going on. But I had some kind of consciousness growing of that-- during these shared experiences, I behaved in certain ways. I remember one such-- I was in a gym, together with Ingrid, it was only me and her, and we did have that kind of an experience-- and it's long-- for a long while. And I could-- feel how-- how eager I was, how-- how 'co-present' I was. I did not use-- knew the word. And-- and just after we had finished it, one of my colleagues stopped me, and he said, 'That's very interesting,' because he had been standing and looking at us. 'It's very interesting, because you are so here and now, when you are together with Ingrid in this way.' And that's-- was kind of help to begin to really understand something, because that was my feeling. I was really here and now. So eager in sharing. So eager in trying to find out-- recognize her-- what we could-- what could be sharable in these moments. So then I did my master 36 years ago; I should try to-- to dive a little bit deeper into that. And this, I've been presented for this co-presence. Yes, it was to be about co-presence. So I was elaborating on this concept, and I was thinking, I should like to try to make a-- a very simple definition; so it would be easy for me to remember, it could be easy for you to remember when I tried to explain it for you. But I couldn't, because I think it is-- it is a rather complex-- complex way of being-- what we are doing intuitively without seeing-hearing child. It is complex, because it is a lot of things happening at the same time. That's why I think it was so difficult. If we are not really studying this, what are we going to know? Because I needed to to that-- I need to do that to be able to do it again. That's why it's so important-- theoretically important. It helped me to do what was very nice, what was a success for us, again. So my-- I tried to make a definition, my conclusion in what it was; it is an attitude, a state of mind. It is a state of a mental, bodily, and emotional awareness of coexisting in each other's here and now. I hope you could have a version of this PowerPoint, because you will-- will forget it-- in the moment I go to the next slide. It is an active state of attention, offering the other person perceivable signs of attentiveness. Perceivable signs of attentiveness. Sounds immediately in my mind, 'Oh, this must be deafblind.' No. This is how we function, all the time, with my little child, together with Bernadette, together with Chris; all the time, if my attention to you is not perceivable, something starts to happen. You will become insecure. Is he not really interested in me? Is she occupied by other things? Is she just talk, talk, talk, does she hear what I'm trying to say? No really perceivable signs of her attention towards me, I become vulnerable. Oh, what then for a deafblind child; when my attention-- my real attention to him or her is not perceivable? When I was reading, reading, and reading through this master's study, I came over a couple sentences-- quotation about mindfulness; and I love it, because I think it's so to the point. that's why I love that you have this concept, at the top for this symposium. He says, 'Mindfulness cannot be reduced to a cognitive tool, but is in it's deepest sense about the way of staying in the world, and experience oneself connected to others. It is an invitation to be precise about where you are, and take note of the internal and external landscape which unfolds in the present moment.' For me, it is really being aware of what I do experience now, that you experience now. Can you see the big difference? I can really be aware of what I am experiencing, now. When I am moving a little bit like this, I am moving my hands and fingers. But for Ingrid, who is totally blind and deaf, it doesn't help her, at all. There is nothing which is shareable outside her. So I really have to experiencing, take into my own body and mind, what you are experiencing now. That's the only thing that is shareable for us, and can then be shareable in communication afterwards. And this attention, this concept-- attention, this personal attention has been so important for me. Because very often, when I am talking about attention earlier-- thinking about it-- I'm thinking, 'Oh, yes it is important to be aware of the attention-- attention of the child.' Uh-huh. He or she is able to-- to sustain his or her attention for, very often, not more than five or six seconds. And then it's break-- then next five or six seconds, then a break. That's was typically what was happening, very often, when I was together with some of my congenital deafblind students. So, it is two attentions. Your attention and mine need-- needs to be coordinated. True attention and interest for someone is reflected in emotional body language, facial expressions, intonations, interested eyes, lively hands and fingers and these will have an effect on the observer. The person with deafblindness can perceive these signs of attentiveness, then they are present-- presented in a tactual mode. Yes, only when they are presented in a tactual mode. And then you present your attention to this-- the child-- the deafblindness. What are your hands telling the child? Does your hand tell the child that your intention and your attention is to, quote, your attention towards my-- what is in my mind now? Or, is my attention perceivable as-- being the attempted attention of listening to you? First of all, listening to you. First of all, being in what you are experiencing. Because I think Ingrid, I know, it's only when we touch each other, it's only when we do it by sharing in touch that you and me can be able to share. Now and afterwards. So I have been trying-- this is one of the last experiences that I shared with Ingrid. It was the last year, the last month I spent together with her; before she left school, and before I left school. We were going out fishing crabs, because I have been thinking about this 'impressions can be expressions.' And I was having imagination of the crab moving on her arm; I could see it's wet traces. And I know how it can be emotionally loaded. That must be something which could be left as bodily, emotional traces. We had done that once-- once before, some years earlier. This time, we went to the beach. It was another big stones, between us and the water. So I-- I saw at once this is impossible for Ingrid to move over and reach the water in a nice way. So I gave her a stone to sit on. And told her that I would go and I would pick up something and come back. And I went away. The worst thing is that I did not succeed in catching any crabs at all. [ Laughter ] And the other thing-- as worse as that-- is that what was happening here was my story. What was happening here? That was Ingrid's story. Nothing was shared. So if I tried to talk about being at the water, at the fjord, it was impossible. Of course it was! The next time I went to the fjord together with Ingrid, I had prepared. Fishing in the crabs, last evening, I had it in a buck? Bernadette: Bucket or... Vege: I have to ask her for some words, all the time. You know what I mean? Can you call it a bucket? Okay for me if it's okay for you. [ Laughter ] So I had it beside me. So then I started to fish, all the time during touch. All the time focusing on sharing what was going on. From A to L-M-N-O-P! Okay? So this is what happened. [Video playing] [Speaking Norwegian] [motorboat in background] Vege: And we had already been together for a long while, walking through the water, out to the beach, sitting down, start to fish, start to share this crab experience. And she was on, on, on. And did you see that she is already in the experience, the first expression is arising. And asked, 'What was this?,' and was pointing to the arm. She was-- she was not saying verbally, 'What was this?,' she was saying something like this on my arm. And after the next repetition-- of experience of the crab, I asked her again, 'What was this?' Then she said, 'Something on my arm,' in this way with her. And see the last part, that was the first conversation. The first real conversation. Not the next day, or two hours after, but when we still was in the situation. And Ingrid could talk about this. She could show me, 'I hold my hand like this. Here I could feel the crab like this. I could feel it on my arm like this.' It was in dialogue where she experienced to be as a person expressing herself, having a voice, being understood. And she expressed-- experienced staying together with a partner, who also expressed something that was understandable. And I think it became-- nourishment for her cognition, something to think about. Because surely she did. A little bit later now, I will show you that-- the conversation the next day. And then this topic about the crab started-- it was initiated by Ingrid. [Indiscernible] It was not nice? It's an ethical question, doing this kind of thing with a deafblind girl? I don't think so. I think it's what we typically do with seeing, hearing children. Have you ever fished crabs? [Silence] Oh, you should have. [ Laughter ] And you should have done it together with your big brother or something. Because I promise you, when we are doing-- when we were doing things like that-- oh, my big brother! Ha! He don't give me any choice. 'Come on, don't be silly, don't be that little boy, you have to feel it, come on, put it in your hand. Don't you dare to take it out! Yoo hoo, little brother.' Or when he trained me for the first time to jump on skis. 'Chicken, chicken!' [ Laughter ] 'Come on.' And I was so scared, but then I went back home. Then I was the hero of myself, in my own life. Telling about the test-- one who was really brave. And you see, Ingrid is doing the exactly the same when we are talking about this the next day. What I have been doing is following her, at the same time as I have tried to provide her with experiences. And as with all others-- because Gunnar has been the one interested in her, in her perspective of it. I have the common interest in partner. That's the principal. Van den Tillaart: So we have used the word tactual and pattern mirroring. What is tactual and pattern mirroring? It's means affirming and commenting on the plausible tactual impressions and expressions of the person who is deafblind. Well, what it actually means is that if you see movement or you see a slight touch, or you see a change in the facial expression or body position; how can I let this person with deafblind know-- deafblindness know, 'I have seen it and I'm attending to you, and I'm with you? I can't perceive what you're doing.' If I say it? If I'm following with my gaze? No. When I, maybe, do the same? When I, maybe, do exactly the same movement, or when I touch together. And in that way, I affirm that, 'Yes, I am with you.' Where - what you are thinking about, what you are experiencing now, or maybe what you're feeling, 'I am with you.' Well, when you do this, with your own presence and the child's presence, you meet each other; and the child not only may experience that you are attentive, but may also experience that you are sharing what she is doing, what she is thinking about; being the topic of feeling something, being the topic of making a movement, but that you are doing that together. And the child may feel, 'Oh, I am heard.' Maybe not yet understood-- that is a difference-- but at least this person sees me, this person hears me, knowing what I'm doing. What it means, as an interaction partner, I may not always know in that moment, what it means, but together we can figure it out. The first step is, to show that you are with the other, and the child knows, 'She's attending to me and following me, and I'm heard and seen.' So, this mirroring or almost imitating, doing the same, is a very strong way and easy way-- if you're comfortable with the child-- easy way to make this happen. So why is that so important? A person with deafblindness can only then experience himself by having communication partner who shows him the person he just was, by commenting on what he just did. So if this was just a slight movement, maybe not very aware, but on a bodily level, but not really thinking about what is happening here, but just, it's happening. As soon as I start following, then the attention is even stronger. And then the person-- becomes even more aware of what this movement was. So what he or she was just doing. So it's kind of an emphasis. 'Oh, you were doing this,' or, 'You like doing this,' or, 'You're just interested in the curve?' Whatever it is, it says something about that person, because the deafblind person is doing this, it says something about that person, that person is interested in-- and it also gives the child feedback about where he or she is interested in, becomes more aware. So she will get to know herself better. Of course, by your affirmation, the person with deafblindness experiences acknowledgment of himself. Then I acknowledge the person with deafblindness. By your co-presence and commenting on what you did, you are nourishing the cognition, thinking, and understanding. So, when this is more emphasized, then, it is easier to leave a memory trace. Otherwise, it may-- she may have experienced this, but then it further goes unnoticed and then it's the next thing to feel. If you do it together it's more conscious, so it may be a memory. We'll come back to that. Then, by simultaneously including a symbol and commenting on what she experienced, the symbol will find its home in body and mind. So this is-- if you are having the attention to together here, then both of you are attending to and thinking about the same. While if you know that the child is attending to and thinking and experiencing this curve, if at that moment I would add, here, the sign for curve-- and I'm sorry I do not know it-- but the sign for curve, then it makes complete sense for the child. That what I'm doing here, the movement and the position and the hand shape, and everything I'm doing here, has to do with this. This means this. So if you first affirm, share attention, and then comment and add the language of the culture. So, we know that persons with deafblindness are incredibly skilled and conceptually aware of how things in the world and people in the world-- how it feels; the tactual understanding is beyond what anyone can imagine. Because in that regard, I think for them, I may be clumsy. And although I worked a long time with touch, but it's not my complete everything-- like every time. So, I need to find ways to develop that. To develop how the world is when you sense it by touch. And you know what? This tactual mirroring, this tactual affirmation, when you follow the child, to attend to her hands or her feet, or with the apple, how it feels. When you attend to that, as well, you get a little bit of an understanding what the child is experiencing tactually. It brings-- the child actually gives you a window to experience what it is-- how different the world looks through the sense of touch. Very complex, as rich as any visual or auditory role, but it gives you a window. The child helps you, then, to get a better understanding about this tactual world. And you get an understanding about how the child moves through this world. So, if you have seen in the experience with the crab, and also with Johanna, that things are not just little cuts of moments. It starts, you get attention for each other, then you continue; you sustain the contact and the interaction. Things happen. So this is actually more kind of an abstract illustration. If you look at the first left block, then you see two little hands, those are the hands of two key points. It is meeting each other, in the tactual world, and you see this flat line. That is like activities. Things you do, be it the crab, be it the candle, be it having a lunch together. And then, if that is all in place, and which we think of and what kind of activity are we going to do-- it's okay-- it's good to prepare, but then that is only a kind of a prerequisite. It's not the biggest thing. The biggest thing comes next. Opening contact, establishing contact, getting the turn exchanges going, and then to see; following the child, and you comment and bring in your own ideas, and the child takes the lead, and you follow the child again, and at all these turns you build this whole experience. And you know what? You saw with Johanna how her movement was-- with this-- it was not just like a technical move to make the winds go. It was really like that, so a little bit excitement. And with the crab, you really saw-- especially the first one, shwaa-- that was excitement and also when Gunnar was doing that-- right-- was building the excitement-- well the crab was excitement in itself enough, but still, affirming that and build the excitement. You build the excitement, proximity gets closer, tempo increases, and then you get this emotional involvement stronger. And this is the clue because this curved line, above, is not-- it has to do with emotions. But the key is the sharing of emotions. So this line is about, 'In what way are emotions shared?' And if you really have some tension or some novelty with stress or some very exciting, you're able to share that, 'Oh, that is scary!' or, 'That is nice!', or, 'That is surprising!' And you share that with each other. Then you get effective involvement. And then it tapers down, again. So if it's not just little chopped moments, although there are many different moments within a narrative, but this whole structure of building together is experienced, makes it coherent, makes it like one story. Experience unfolds-- has a beginning and an end. Vege: Is it so that this experiences from the pier and the crab establishes traces? Is it something left in Ingrid's body and mind? What we called, what Bernadette and I have been calling bodily emotion traces, for some years now. And for sure, when Ingrid started this part of the conversation, we had been talking for a while, about the ruck sack and the orange, which we did have on the beach, when after the crab fishing-- then suddenly, she's moving-- kind of movements in my hands to tell me, 'I want to tell you something,' and then this starts. [Video playing] Vege: [Speaking Norwegian] [sound of waves and seabirds in the background] Vege: Can I see, she is not afraid anymore. You cannot see the tension from yesterday, on the pier. She's proud. I think proud because she had image of being a person who was brave enough to have the crab on the arm, but also proud because she was able to keep in her mind what she has done; and being able to share it and having the experience of being understood. Having an own voice, living a life, that she won't need to shout, 'Please see me as the person I am,' because the condition for having the experience of-- experiences of being me, worthy of Gunnar's and others' attention as being fulfilled. At least enough to experience this kind of moments which make my life so good, so good. And my life, because I am also seen as the person I am. He listened to me. He understood my touch, my expressions. 'Gunnar is also a person worth being listened to.' I think that is what we have to share before-- the whole time-- sharing moments where we do have this experience of being an 'I,' linked together with a 'You,' and experience the 'beingness.' That's-- I think-- the green house condition for growing as a human being. [Applause] [Silence] Fade up from black. Animation: Text for TSBVI transform into braille cells for TSBVI. Fade to black.