TRANSCRIPT - Legal Overview 504

We have a speaker tonight, Lorna Salgado from region 10. Forgot recording in progress. Alright, so we're now recording. Yay! So we have Lorna with us from region 10. She's going to talk to us about 500, and 4. Before we start, let's consider our norms. Tea time is established. To build a community of practice for VIs, those of us that are lot about. And get us connected with each other and other professionals in the field and around us in different fields that Touch us, tangentially. That was a word. And by registering for this session because we do record and repost your giving us permission to publish. The contents which could include your image and voice. So our session norms feel free to speak. And ask questions. That's what we're here for. Please say your name in case we have some. Attendees who would not be able to identify you by the name on the screen. If you have questions and don't really want to speak, I'll be moderating the chat. So go ahead and put it in the chat. So at this point, I'm going to hand it over to. Lorna, we will. Wrap up at the end with our links and resources and such. So. There you go, Lorna. Hi you guys, it is so good to be with you today. I have no Donna for many a year, so I am enjoying it to see her face again today and done. I'm thinking most people are VI teachers calms that kind of thing out here with me today. All right. Yeah, we have some parents and students, college students, so. Baby TBIs? Yes! Hey, we need to grow those, don't we in our state? So thank you guys for joining us. Yeah. Cool. We've had a few. Yes, we do. And we have international, so we are US Canada. Okay. And I believe we have somebody that usually comes in from Ecuador. So we are from all over. Well, I'm only doing it in English. So hey guys, before we get started, truly thank you for what you do, whether you're a parent and hey guys before we get started truly thank you for what you do whether you're a parent an educator a student our work is so important for kids and families. So thank you for everything you do before we even get started. And today I'm I was asked to come and talk about hey what's the difference between section 504 and special education and I do have a link to the slides there and I'm gonna go ahead and introduce myself and tell you the link to the slides is still there as well as if you prefer to do it through QR code. There's also a QR code link to those slides. My name is Lorna here at region 10. I do inclusive services. As well as working with section 504. I have been at the service center for, I think this is my 12 year here, region 10 is in the Dallas area if you're wondering. And prior to that I was an educational diagnostician and a special education teacher for many years. So, oh, thank you for putting that link in there for them to the bitly. It is case sensitive and she got it right. So thank you. So my whole career, I won't tell you how many years because I have the good filter on and look a lot younger on zoom so we'll just not say how many years I've been in education, but it's been quite a while and so. There have been many changes over the years, but let's go ahead and talk about what's different between section 504 and special ed. So, Section 5 of 4 is really a civil rights thing. It says. Kids with disabilities or impairments. Have to have access to everything other children without disabilities have access to. That means curriculum, field trips, events, all those things. It also means it's sometimes in schools things like this. They go, oh. Well, it's time for the band concert, but we don't have anybody to help your child do XYZ. Yeah, they have to have access to what everyone else has access to. So if they need something, it has to be provided. That's what 504 is there for. So I kind of see 500, and 4 is sort of a big umbrella. Of people with disabilities and impairments, whereas special education is sort of a piece under that umbrella. Special education. Ensures that kids with disabilities or parents have access to everything other children without disabilities have access to and includes that we have to make sure that they have access to specially designed instruction. So what's special about special ed? Specially designed instruction. That's the thing that's special for us. And so we're going to go into a little bit more detail here. And compare and contrast the 2 because I thought that might be the best way to sort of go about it and please know I do have the chat up and I'm very zoom proficient so if you have something you want to throw in the chat I'm happy to look at it and answer your questions. I also think we're small enough that if you want to unmute, I would love to hear from you. So let's talk a little compare and contrast. About section 504 and IEPs. So the first thing I did was kind of talk about what's the what so and IEP, we have to have a qualifying disability. To receive, which is the free and appropriate public education. With special ed services related services. Then for 504 notice it says not just a disability but disability or impairment to be provided faith with accommodations or school supports as needed. So legally what's different? That's our little second block. Legally what's different is we have 2 different laws that govern us so special education is individuals with disabilities education act or IDEA. And section 504 is actually section 504 of the rehabilitation act of 1973. So IDEA. Actually involves funds and it has a lot more to it but IDA has a lot of requirements. Whereas 500, and 4 just says this is civil rights. We're making sure that students went to disabilities aren't discriminated against. Notice that 5, 0 4 is unfunded. So. Schools and agencies we often get money for students with disabilities to provide the programs that our students need. Whereas for 500, and 4 it's about leveling that playing field. So there aren't funds. Specific to 500, and 4. Now, Schools have general funds that sometimes they use. I'm to provide things for example, we have had students who let's say it's a VI student who the something that they need is transportation. But they really don't have any specially designed instruction. They don't have a need for special education. They could really just a few accommodations would be it. But maybe there's a need for transportation. And in that case, they could still get transportation on section 504. It's not funded, but it's there. So we kind of have that going for us. So that's kind of those differences. How are you eligible for one or the other? So to have an IEP under that IDEA funding We have to be identified in Texas. Now, I know that we have some people joining us from other places, so I'm going to be a little Texas specific and then and this might be a little adjusted for you but in Texas we have 13 specific disabilities. And the child has to meet the eligibility for one of those disabilities. We have to find that that disability exists. And it also needs to impact them at school. Their ability to learn or benefit from the general line curriculum. So if it in inhibits their access to the curriculum or their progress in the curriculum. Then that's kind of what we look at there. In addition to having a disability. So for 504. The child can have a disability or impairment and it's a little different. There aren't 13 categories. For example, I'm gonna give you one asthma. Is a category for 504 because it's a it's an impairment or a disability but it's not one of the 13 specific disabilities for special education. But 4504, it has to. Substantially impair. A major life activity. So if you think about vision for some of your kids, a major life activity is seeing. So for some of our kids for 500, and 4, the disability that's impacted is vision. And 4 of these disabilities, notice that when we're talking about the 13 IDEA special education disabilities. We're talking about it has to impact them at school. Either their access to the curriculum. Or their progress in the curriculum. Whereas for 504 It can directly impact learning, but it doesn't have to. For example, we might have a student with asthma, it might not ever impact learning. And they might still have a 500, and 4 to make sure that we have plans in place. For that or if they have difficulty breathing at times because certainly breathing is a major life activity. Just like for you guys, vision would be. So I want you to think about it. Some of you have been really on the special education side of it and we really think about Our kids with IEPs were very secure with VI being their eligibility and we're very used to that. But there are kids in 500, and 4 that have a visual impairment. And so people would say, well, how can that be? Well, if the visual impairment, so. It can even be a child who anatomically loses an eye. They might just need accommodations at school it's not really impacting them other than a need for some accommodations to sit in a certain part of the room. Or, I don't know, have something provided in a different way. Some of your students really only need large print of something and that's really all they need other than that. It's not impacting them. So it's really a decision for our committees to think about. Do we need something specially designed or do we just need some accommodations because there is a limitation to the major life activity? So they're very well could be students in 500, and 4 with a visual impairment who don't need specially designed instruction or IDEA. I don't see any questions in the chat yet. Anything y'all are thinking, wandering about at this point. I gotta. Stopping after a couple to see if you have anything you want to ask or say or share. Certainly she said communities of practice, so I can always learn from you guys as well. So. Anything there that you guys had for me? Notice I'm giving it some wait time. Okay. I don't see anything yet, nobody unmuted, so I'm gonna give it one more chance. Here we go. Someone did post in the chat and it's actually a great question. If I can read it out loud. Oh please! It says does AVI teacher ever get consulted to discuss accommodations and being eligible for 504? That's, thank you. Yes, I do see the chat. I guess I wasn't moving up with it. What a great question. Thank you for asking that. So the answer is that would be the best case scenario. That would be a really good 504 team. So when we talk about who's required here in a second on one of the following slides, we'll discuss that like when we think about an IEP. Sorry, I think I went forward. Let me go back. When we think about an IEP, we know that We have to have certain people present. And it's not required. As a specific way like if the student is V. If we're looking at a visual impairment we must have that teacher. But the truth is who's the best person to help a team understand the disability? And it would probably be that VI teacher. So absolutely. That would be the best case scenario is to have the VI teacher who understands the evaluation. Who understands the impact of having a visual impairment? To, help 504 teams come up with the appropriate accommodations and certainly the parent with that as well. So, such a good question. And I am gonna get to that when we talk about who's in the team. So thank you for asking that. I think mine is going the wrong way on the chat. I'm mine was at the bottom. I need to go into the top. There we go. Alright, so let's talk about the processes for both of them. So to get into have an IEP. The parent has to consent for the evaluation. We have to have that multi disciplinary team. Schools have to complete in evaluation report. And they have to determine if the student has the disability and then all of that to say they have a disability, they're they're eligible. Well, they, our committee is really the term eligibility, but they look at the disability and there's a timeframe, right? For 504 it's a little bit less rigorous for that process. Our process for IIPs is very It's very defined the process for 504 is less so the parent does have to consent if we do an evaluation But the evaluation isn't formal for 504. It does not need to be like we think of the full and individual evaluation for IEPs, that's not the case. We don't need that for 500, and 4. Oftentimes it's a team collecting the data that they have. Might be information from the parent, maybe the parent brings, the doctors report about the vision. And that's really all that they have to do is that evaluation can just be discussed in the meeting. They write down the pieces from which they made the decisions. And then they're kinda done. They don't have to have some formal or specialized report. It doesn't have to have. The signatures of certain people. Things like that the evaluation has to consider also has to have multiple forms of information. We can't just go well the doctor says or the mom says but we can definitely pull those together to look at that process for that. I also want the next part is the evaluation. So I'll kind of put those 2 together. The parents can request that the local education agency, the school district fund an independent evaluation but They are not required to. If they choose not to grant it, then the parent can follow due process. So with the evaluation. If a parent disagrees with it in special education. Most of our school districts will offer an independent evaluation. Or the parent can file a process and ask for that to be paid for. For 504 there's no provision for funding for an independent evaluation the local education agency can consider independent evaluation and their placement decisions. So sometimes all the committees going to have the offer VI is what the parent is telling us and what the doctor maybe has stated and then what the teachers are seeing and that's okay for 500, and 4. That's actually adequate. It doesn't have the stringent. requirements. That special education has through an IP. I do think too, I do wanna say all this is what we know today. Because that is gonna possibly change there. There is some. Reworking of 504 out in legislation. Federally they're looking at it. There's about to be a time when we our allowed to have some input and some comment period. So that's kind of one of those things that I'm gonna tell you this and this is how it is today, but knowing that it could change and there could be new legislation that may shore up some of this a little bit more, we may see more similarities. To how it looks for the IP process. And I see a follow-up question. If VI is going to make recommendations about a accommodations in eleability, would we need to conduct an FVA? Would special consent be needed? So the answer to 504 is no you wouldn't have to conduct that. Could you, yes, would you need special consent? No, that's just when the parent can since to the evaluation. It's not specific like it is for special ed. So the parents saying yes, we can collect data to a evaluate. You could collect it. I'm going to give you my take on it. This is Lorna's opinion only. I always get consent from parents before I'm doing if we didn't name that specifically in the 504 when we got that. I'm always gonna go back and make sure that we get the right consent. You kind of have to come out of that special ed mindset. It's not as rigorous. Really we're saying, hey, can we do an a vow because that's just gathering data. So you wouldn't have to have the FVA. Formally, but you could. Remember though that this is unfunded. So who's going to do it is often the question because it's not a funded thing. Any other questions? Yeah. That's a great question. Lorna, I think this is Donna. I think that's where we kind of get muddy waters for VI and it's that specifically designed instruction. When do we go from is everything being met in 500, and 4 or are we providing specifically designed instruction that needs to be then addressed in an IEP with sped services. I think there's a really, really I know for myself there's always been like that gray area when do we flip over from one to the other? Yeah, and I wish I had a checklist because the truth is it's like we say in everything for special education. It really is dependent upon the student. But what you're going to ask yourself, the question that I always ask is, Is there anything more than accommodations that this child needs? Is there ever any, cause if we're providing a service. Yeah, so for everybody that's saying, O and M, well, that's a service. So we know if that's a piece of it. But we do have students for whom. We're at the point where all they need is an accommodation. All they need is large print. That is literally it. That's not specially designed. So I wish there were a. Federal XYZ equals specially designed, but it's not. And the good part about that is that's really up to our committees to determine when we're meeting. Is this? Is what this child needs specially designed. Or is it just an accommodation plan? Because a comment, so if they just need something to accommodate. And that's all we need to do for them. They may be 5 or 4 may be the appropriate place for them. But if they're going to need other services, then it's probably going to be an IP. So I wish it were that simple. Just to go through and go, oh, if it's this, it's 504 if it's this, it's an IP, but it really is up to the committees and each individual student. So I know that's not the answer everyone wants, but that's what it is. I hope that answered your question. Yeah, let it. So I do have a question. So in regards to that then as far as like O and M goes. Say that it can know. Doesn't necessarily need VI, but there's deficits for ON. How, I mean, can they get one without the other? I would assume that they would, but would it fall under like a 5 or 4 or would that be an IP? That would be an IP because that is a service. Alright, take, and mobility as a service and. Okay. 5 of 4 plans aren't really services. It's just supports and accommodation. So. Anything where we would need any kind of own. That's gonna be, that's a given that it's going to the IEP. Great question. So how would you document that paperwork wise? Like would they have the eligibility of VI with the related service of O and M or. Because, well, I'm asking because in our sped paperwork, like when you look at it. Typically, you know, the VI is the eligibility and then down below it'll say related services and it'll show O and M. But I mean, can O and M be, it obviously I don't, it can't be a standalone eligibility. So how would you document that paper workwise? You're correct. To get O and M, you would have to have a visual impairment. So the disability is VI. And then the service that they get would be a related service related to their visual impairment is the OM that they would need. So. Okay. And I would also question if if they're getting Oh, and I'm services. Have we documented thoroughly? That they don't need. I There's a lot of things that go with that. That maybe they could get in their VI services. Is that kind of what you're asking Whitney is can they get O and M without being served VI? Yes, yes. That's what that's exactly what I'm asking. So. At all. Yeah, there's so much. There's so much that team there could do that they could address together. That there would be some thorough testing there. So I guess that answer would be, is it technically possible? Yes. Is it probable? Probably not. We're not. That was a good question. Okay, that's what I needed to know. Thank you. And Britney is right in there in the comments there with, there's always ECC skills. There are tons of ECC skills that we can. We can. Pull on for that. Yeah, okay, good question. Thank you guys. That's why I'm glad you're all here. Alright. Let's talk about meetings. Who's required at each? Cause this is a difference. So for an IEP meeting, we have to have the parent. We have to have the general a teacher, the special teacher, the evaluator or the person to interpret the results. The district represented with the I say decision making power that's your administrator and then others. As needed depending on the coding of the students. So for you guys, the VI teacher. We also have kids for whom we must have a career technology education teacher in Texas. In Texas we have our LPAC. Our language proficiency committee. So all of those could be required. Depending on the students. So for you guys, everybody, it's the VI teacher. But then I want you to look at 504 because it goes back to the first question. I think that. You guys asked over here? I've forgotten who asked it, but anyway. Whoever asked this question for 500, and 4, the required members are the way it's worded, it doesn't give specific roles. Well, it doesn't give specific titles in the school. It says someone who can make placement decisions. So that could be our administrator. It could be a 504 coordinator because really there's not a lot of placement when we talk about 504. There's really not placement. It's really talking about scheduling is what they mean with placement. It has to be someone knowledgeable about the student. That can be parents, that can be teachers, interventionists. It could be a VI teacher. But you're also probably gonna find yourselves in this boat, someone who can interpret the evaluation data. So that could be your VI person. You're nurse, your diagnostician, your interventionist, your, that can be anybody. That understands the so if you're talking about a student with a visual impairment And we're looking at 504. So when you said does a VI teacher need to attend, I think a 5014 would be remiss. If they didn't have a VI person, help them interpret the evaluation data. Whether that's at the meeting or whether they had discussed it with somebody who's gonna fulfill that role. During the meeting, but honestly, for special ed it says you can't hold a meeting without the VI person present right the 504 doesn't say that it says someone who can interpret the data is it best if you're there? Yeah, it is. But is it required by law? It is not. So just someone who can interpret the evaluation results. And someone knowledgeable about the student, would have to be there to sign those. And interesting, you know, like if special ed in Texas, we have, well, can you sign twice? Can you sign here in there? Interestingly in 500, and 4, you could somebody could sign more than once possibly on those. Okay. Alright, let me see if anything can check there we go. Another difference between IEPs and section 504 is, you know, in with IEPs, we have to look at that every year. We have to do our annual review. We have to do it by the date of the previous meeting. So once yearly means exactly to the date. And the student must be re-evaluated once every 3 years, whether we do The review of existing evaluation data or a read. Or whether we do a full evaluation, those have to be looked at every 3 years. Notice what it says for 504. It's a one sentence. Well, it's not even a sentence. Requires periodic reevaluations. So there's no, oh, we had their 504 meeting on October first last year, so we have to have it by, you know. September thirtieth nope it just says periodic it can look how it looks Now, what happens a lot of times is your districts. Or your charter schools often will have their own policy that hey we are gonna look at these once a year. The other thing that comes up is sometimes these will be in conjunction possibly with an L-pack. Our language proficiency committees. And so sometimes those do have to meet and so we have to get if we've changed something we need to go back to our 504 so I feel like that might be something, when 504 is revamped that we might see differently. Because right now periodic. It's just means periodic. It means however often you think is periodic review. And it doesn't talk about. Annual meetings. It just says reevaluations periodically. So technically you could. Stay in for a while before we looked at that. Most schools in my area tend to try and do. Their 504 is about once a year to look at it. Just to make sure it's correct, but it certainly doesn't have to be a certain date. For that. Any questions about that word stuff? Oh, details. I didn't do the details. Yeah, sorry. So there are some musts in the IEP. We must have the present levels. Oh, that's misspelled. Present levels of academic achievement and functional performance. I'll fix that. We must have the present levels, we have to have the annual goals. We have to have the supports and services that the students will need and that's the whole schedule of services. How many minutes? That frequency location and duration piece. We have to talk about the accommodations. The students might need the modifications. We have to talk about standardized testing, our favorite topic. And then we have to talk about the least restrictive environment and by 14 we have to talk about. Transition and there are a few more must depending on the students so we must have certain things depending on the students disability. In 504, we generally have an accommodation. We're gonna have an accommodation plan. We might have some supports. In the past we left the word services because some of our kids got dyslexia services, but in the state of Texas, dyslexia services, if you're getting an intervention, now will go through special education, but we could still have some 5, 4 this year as we transition that. So I kind of left it. But really, 504 is about accommodations and supports in the classroom. Not really about services if they need a service that's specially designed. And who's going to provide each service and who's responsible for implementation. Is what has to go into our 504 plans. Alright, questions about any of that. Let's see. Oh, I heard the word dyslexia. Okay. And next year, yes. For dyslexia, you are correct. Dyslexia is one of those. Interesting topics this year. We're loving that. I do have a quick question. Sure. So. I've had instances where maybe others have experienced the same. Where the 504 committee. Gives the student an eligibility. Of VI without contacting a VI teacher and then that student is referred to special education for an evaluation and then they don't qualify. For VI. So then the parents are like what's going on and It kind of turns into a little bit of a mess because then they don't qualify for special education. So I guess there's a disconnect. I think sometimes between contacting maybe a qualified person to determine a VI eligibility for Final 4, if that makes sense. Yeah. And then we we get stuck with a mess because a parent was told, oh yeah, your kid qualifies for BI and then they don't. But they could still qualify for 504 VI if they had some kind of evaluation saying there was a visual impairment because it doesn't have to meet the rigorous standards that your IEP did. So you you could still say, hey, our committee still looks at that. But Brittany, you're a hundred percent correct. If we had that back at the 504 phase, especially when we were thinking, oh gosh, we think this might be. This kid might be needing more support than just some accommodations. So We think we need to refer to special education and in that case. It's a little remiss not to call in somebody from VI and I think In some of our districts, that sort of a thing of, well, it's not special. And we're talking about 504, we can't call special ed into our meeting, but that's almost like the backwards thinking because what we want to do is have somebody who is an expert in VI. Coaches through the information that we have so It would be great if our schools knew, hey, if you have a kid that's VI 504 and you're having a meeting it would be fabulous to at least before the meeting consult with your VI person. If not, have them come to the meeting. You know, either one of those would be preferable to we make a decision and then the student doesn't need the actual IDEA eligibility for VI. But they actually could still go back. Even though you said no to VI for IDEA, that doesn't mean that they're losing 504. I'll tell you when they lose 5 or 4. This is so this is case law stuff, but here we go. If a parent refuses. Special education and says, - I disagree. I'm not giving consent. They're not VI. Then the 504 can't go back and say their VI because it's as if the disability didn't exist. So the only reason they couldn't go back to F. 4 is if the parents refused the I the IP the IDEA. I'm eligible. Or disability. But the 504 could come back and say although the kid didn't meet IDEA requirements. We still feel like, remember, 504 doesn't just have disability. It has the word impairment. And if it's substantially limits one of the functionings for that kiddo. So even if they didn't make VI for IDEA purposes. You could still look at it evaluation and see do we have enough to say that's an impairment. For that child under 504. Does that, I probably just muddy your waters there for you, Brittany, but. Hopefully that helps. Alright, any other questions about that? Let me give it a minute for y'all to undo. Okay. Okay. So I got one. Julia, did you have something? Oh, I don't. Okay, if you think of it or want to, do it. So that there's a difference with what we, Notify and our parent processes. And the first one is. For an IP if there's any changes. We have to inform parents right before we do that. We have to give them written notice required for every art meeting for every valuation if we want to, implement a change in an IEP, I think amendment in Texas. Then we have to inform parents and we have to get their permission. Parents have to consent for the evaluation. They also have to consent before the child can be provided an IEP and it has to that specific evaluation has to be done. For the for the IEP team to determine eligibility. But for 504. If we're doing a significant change, then they have to notify parents. But the notice doesn't have to be in writing for 504. I know that freaks us out on the special inside because we're like, why would we not do that? But you don't have to. Why would we not do that? But you don't have to. For them, the school can simply notify parents. Hey, we're doing this change. For them, the school can simply notify parents, hey, we're doing this change. There's really not a lot of actual placement in 504 but they can just tell the parent hey we're amending this way we're changing it. The parent has to consent to evaluate but remember evaluation doesn't have to consent to evaluate but remember evaluation doesn't have to be formal. Evaluations can be, we just collected data and discussed it. That can be an evaluation. Accommodations can be put in place without an evaluation. So for example, if all we had is a doctors recommendation. The team can. Use that as their evaluation piece. And the discussion with parents and these qualified professionals, and we can add the accommodations that way. So we don't have to have that. That full and individual evaluation. We don't even have to have a formal evaluation. It can just be we gathered all this data. We put it in place, that kind of thing. Questions about that? I know we have parents on the call. You got a question about that? It's a lot grayer in 504, isn't it? Alright, disputes. I'm just gonna put this out in the universe. I hope we don't have any disputes. I hope we're having good communication with our families so that we don't have disputes. But if with an IEP, the parents have to have access to and they have to be provided due process. For the parents out there that's in your procedural safeguards that you get through the school district through the, at the meetings and it's posted on their website so it's on TEA so you have procedural safeguards. For 504 remember It goes to a different thing because it's through the Office of Civil Rights. So it's not a due process if you disagree with a 500, and 4. Schools are supposed to have an impartial hearing to parents who have complaints. But it's truly up to the districts. To design and implement that hearing process. So do you hear what that says? You have to have an impartial hearing but the school who's already partial gets to determine what that hearing looks like. And complaints then are through the Office of Civil Rights and not through the due process. What would the final 4? It looks like we did have a question. What would 5 of 40, what would I'm reading it. Yeah, thank you. What would a model for vision evaluation look like? You know, it can. Gosh. I know I have Katie on here too. Kate King, if you're still on this call, have you seen one that's a 504. Really it can look like anything. It doesn't require a specific I report. Because it doesn't, technically for 5 or 4 it doesn't require a doctor. The parent could come in and say, here's what the doctor told me. Here's what I have. 504 does not have the same rules. Katie, are you on here? I'm here. Do you have anything you would add to that for me at all? Okay. Just my own experiences. We've we've had I've had a few students that They receive services as visual impaired. Use 3504. And our 504 coordinator tried to. Get that form just because then they have the information they need. For the registration. That they're having to do as well because that form has a lot of that information for them. But I don't think it was required. So I think that was something that was It was just something that they. They saw, they saw, Hey, you guys have this form that you're always. Using and then if they decided that we needed to do. More assessment. They already had that document available for us. Which is probably the best bet. So thank you. I knew Katie would help add to that with her. Thank you, Kate. Thank you, Katie. So yeah, so it doesn't. That's the thing about 504 is things are not required, but Katie brings up a good point. The more information the 5014 has, the better the decision they're gonna make as to whether 5 or 4 is appropriate or whether. Moving through the IEP process. Would be the better option. And so when I don't have all the information, so here's what happens sometimes. Let's just be realistic because I've been around schools a long time and we know what happens. Somebody moves in. Can be from another country can be from another state can be from right next door. But they move in and we go to 504 on that because we can get it quickly and start with the accommodations and so people go can we get them in 5, point, 0, 4, because we need to have these accommodations. And so people go, can we get them in 504 because we need to have these accommodations. And it's comes from a good place. We want to do right things by kids. We wanna make sure that they have what they need to be successful in school. So they start with the 500, and 4, but then they find out that we didn't really go see that information from the doctor we went with whatever we had just to get the kid going and get some support for the student. And then it comes down to, wait a minute, we didn't have a complete picture. And so sometimes they realize You know what? This should have been, it should have gone from 504 into the IDEA process or referral for special education. So I think sometimes not having that information really can put us more behind even though we were trying to do it with a good heart. For kids so I would always say The better bet, what I hear attorney say all the time is. The closer you are to what we would require for special ed, the more information you're gonna have, the more defensible your 500, and 4 is and the better outcomes we're gonna have for kids and that's really what it's about is the more information is better for kids. It also informs my 500, and 14, hey, based on what the doctors saying and usually the doctors often after the I report, you know, we'll get recommendations and things like that. That really helps us to know if it's time to move from 5 or 4 to the special education process. Thank you for that. It wouldn't be required though. It's got a real Lucy Goosey, evaluation requirement for 504. Alright, I hope we don't have to spend much time here, but I went ahead and put. Cause apparently in some other states never Texas there are problems with kids with discipline. Even our students who have a visual impairment. So the idea really just talks about if they're suspended more than 10 days we have to have that manifest determination meeting the MDR determine whether the behavior led to the suspension is a manifestation of the disability. And if you look the big difference is you have to do that in 504 as well, but you don't have to provide access to their in education while they're temporarily. Placed out of school for the day. Okay, I think the other thing that I wanted to show you guys are the resources that are out there. For section 504 and IP and behavior in Texas. So. When I click on these, I'm just, I'm not gonna go through them, but I want you to see what they are. We have in the state of Texas a 504 technical assistance guide so everything that I just told you plus more is in this technical assistance guide and it has. If it pops up, usually it pops up in 2 s, but of course when we're on a zoom, there it goes. For example, when it talked when I talked about who's required in the meeting. That's actually and like what it is what's a disability and impairment was right there and how that's kind of that information on who's eligible. It's a lot less stringent as And this is who has to be there during the meeting. Here's what's required during the meeting. So it kind of gives you a little bit of information there. To help you with that. The other one on here is the IEP development technical assistance guide in Texas. I love, love it. Because it gives me everything I would want to know about an IEP in Texas. I'm not going to go through it. And then there's one that's exactly the same for behavior supports. Did I think I had a question up in here. If a student is on an IEP for something else, not VI. If someone has a concern about the meeting VI, does the team have to decide if a VI of L is needed? That once they're in special education for anything that would go through the special education process. Anybody wanna add to that? Who's an expert on that? Who would do that decision. Donna, if you have a feeling on that. Not an expert in it, but yeah, if they're already in sped it would be a referral for evaluation for us. Yeah. So if they're already in and that's that would just be we suspect another disability so you would. You have 2 choices, the new FIE or you know what happens sometimes is We're a year in and something happens. And so you can always have that amendment to the full and individual evaluation as well. Or do anyone, but it would definitely be a referral through special education. So once you're in special education, you don't go back to 504. And you don't get both. You're not in 504 for one thing and special ed for another. So I'm not in 504 for my ADHD and special ed for my VI. Everything would be if I'm in special education all of my disabilities are addressed through my IAP. So I think that's a great. Thing. Alright, I'm almost to the end. Do we have any questions that I didn't think about? Oh, somebody said they lost audio. I can hear. I can hear you all. Any other questions? Okay, I can too. I'm sorry it was probably you friend I'm sorry. Anything else you can put in the chat, you can ask. It is a A group of community here to help. So if you have questions, I'll even be quiet and let smarter people answer. Okay. We absolutely appreciate you coming Lorna. I love being with your folks. It's good to see you again and Y'all are awesome. Thank you for what you do. I am shared so you can share. We. We will get to the code in just a minute. Lorna, if you would, after this session, if you don't mind sharing your handouts so that we can post them with our with our meeting post. I'm emailing them to you as we speak. Awesome. And I'm going to share and go over our closing meeting items. First is where would you find these ones they're posted? You are going to find them on my website. I guess you guys are really probably tired of me, touting my website. I love it. Of course I tout it. So if you missed part or your, your audio drop or you want to look at the handouts again. You would come to this link where my site is go all the way down to the bottom. T time will be posted here. If you missed one of the previous 2 times, that is not from this school year. Up here at the top is our live binder that is in progress and always updated and we have tech T times from last year and this year I will get to your Session code in just a moment, Tricia. We gotta go through the rest of the things if I don't take up. Majority of this 3 to 4 time and we have everybody logged into the 3 to 4 time we can't give you credit. So we're gonna fill in to these this last little bit. All right, new bridge course. I thought I changed that date, but it did go active as of Monday. So we have a Braille note touch bridge course for those of you who are looking for Braille note touch course and wanting to work on that with your student. That is. Here on our online learning on the TSB VVI website. You would come down to the bottom if you don't have an ESC works, you would set your ESC works up right there. Penny, I see you are puppy. I just want a pet. You register for your bridge course here. And if you look down, we have. A live Brown Note Touch course. I am so excited. Beginner is active, intermediate is in progress at the moment. ATIA is offering free online courses for credit. And that link. Here's ATI A and to the bridge course in the chat. Our next session is going to be with Louis Perez from. Hey, so, UDL, he's gonna be, is gonna be our topic. So September 20 first September, the 20 eighth that needed, Swanson is coming from UT Austin to talk about AT assessment. For the IEP and the IFSP in October, we're gonna have O and M topics galore. So all my columns I did not forget about you this year. We are having 4 whole sessions on O and M. So we're having Andrew B Burnett from TETA DWC and Chris Cole. Coming in for travel talk. Jim Allen's coming in from O and for doing 3D printing and more October nineteenth? I'm sorry. I fibbed. We have 3 sessions for Om. October nineteenth. We will have no session. And October 20 sixth Andrea Bishop and Kelly Nicholson are coming in to do how to include travel tech in your lessons. So excited. About the next couple of sessions. Those of you that asked, here is your code. 6, 4, one. 3 9 one that last link for suggestions in this QR code is if we haven't hit the topic that you want. Give us a suggestion and we will try to fill it. I believe they have the ACVR EP. Credit in for Calms. Since we did include comms in our sessions this year, the code is 6 4 1 3 9 one And whoever asked about the ACV, R EP, drop me an email. And I will make sure we ask and make sure that those are in place for you. So looking forward to everybody. Thank you again, Lorna and everyone that came into attendance tonight. I will be around for questions. After the session, if you have something burning that you need to ask before we end.