Description of graphical content is included between Description Start and Description End. Transcript Start Chapter 1. Introduction [ Music ] Animation: Text for TSBVI transform into braille cells for TSBVI. Title: Tactile Reciprocal Interactions & BETs Title: With Bernadette Van Den Tillaart & Gunnar Vege [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Gunnar Vege speaking at conference right-side text: The experiences and ideas shared in this video are based upon the dialogical perspective. Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Gunnar & Bernadette on stage at conference. Bernadette holds an apple. center text: Children develop communication, language, concepts and relationships through reciprocal interactions with competent communication partners. Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Bernadette Van Den Tillaart speaking at conference center text: Parents and other educators who interact with sighted-hearing children may not feel competent when meeting a child who is congenitally deafblind. Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Gunnar & Bernadette on stage, touching each other's faces to share the experience of the apple Bernadette is holding. center text: They need to become aware of what they do in their everyday interactions. How social interaction "works." Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Bernadette & Gunnar at workshop. Gunnar holds his two fists in front of his chest. center text: As they join the tactile world of this child, these interaction strategies have to be applied through touch. Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Bernadette speaking at workshop gesturing with her hands. center text: Only then the communication partner and the child with congenital deafblindnesss can be co-present and share meaningful tactile experiences. Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photos: Gunnar stands in front of Bernadette at workshop and gestures with his hands. center text: Strong impressions will leave memory traces of what was felt with the body and emotionally: Bodily Emotional Traces (BETs). Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Two workshop participants tactile explore a deflated ballon. center text: When the interaction partner affirms the child's expressions of these tactile memory traces, and adds words or signs... Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Teacher and student with deafblindness touching hands together. center text: ...he or she nourishes the development of language. Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: Student with deafblindness rests her hand on her teacher's hand, both are smiling. center text: Therefore, to support the development of communication, our focus should be on training and coaching educators... Description End: [ Slide end: ] [ Slide start: ] Description Start: Content: photo: close up of student's & teacher's hands from previous photo center text: to become competent tactile interaction partners. Bernadette Van Den Tillaart & Gunnar Vege Description End: [ Slide end: ] Chapter 2. From Meaningful to Significant Title: From Meaningful to Significant Gunnar Vege: I think that is very often happen when we have been through... what did we call it-- we call it-- routines-- when we have been creating routines in our life and we do that all the time. I think [ Inaudible ] sometimes writing something about scripts. Going to the shop-- shopping-- bread make or whatever it is-- going out into the car, going back home, and we do it day out and day in, but the day as when I was to get with Ingrid, and I think-- now I have to make a change. I have to make something new into the situation to make her think. It is in this special moments when a special thing happens. That broke this routine down for a little moment, like losing the key to the car. And when... I-- then showing Ingrid that , Ingrid, we have to feel on the door of the car and-- oh it's still closed-- it's still closed and I asked her, "What you thinking Ingrid, what you think?" And she's facing to me and she-- "Gunnar-- the key, the key, the key". That was this moment when we moved from what is meaningful, what we knew from the day before, the day before that, the day before that to a moment where something new is happening. So then she had to think because she was moved out of this automatic pilot. And this is very-- I think it's very exciting because in this moment I am really challenging her agency-- the cognitive agency. She started to think and what did she do? Oh, "Gunnar the key?" I could answer her, not saying, "Yes, of course the key is there." No, I said, "Where is the key? I think we have to-- we have to feel-- look for it. In this pocket-- in this pocket? No. In this pocket? No." Oh she was so excited. And then she was asking again, "Gunnar, the key." I said, "Come on perhaps, perhaps, perhaps I have lost it. We have to feel down there." She was searching for it down on the floor and... [grunting] there it was the key. Suddenly she found it. She was-- it was secure again, because what was important for her, and I think what is very often important to us, is coming back to place, which is meaningful. Chris Montgomery: Safe. Vege: Safe, yes-- meaningful and safe. Because when I recognize-- oh yes now I am on my way into the car again-- I'm on my way in to the car again. I'm on my way back to the school, then I'm safe. I know I will be back. Yes, I think that is the same then we are talking about driving to the- to the work. I have done it for 20 years. My colleague ask me when I arrive on work, "How was your travel to your work?" Hello, [ Laughter ] I have done it for 20 years, it was the same as yesterday as the day before, as the day before that. So it-it-it's kind of a stupid question. I am in a meaningful situation... and I don't think-- I don't need to think about anything because I know where I am, I know where I am on my way to. So asking me what did happen, is kind of a weird question. In a moment, my car and another car is so close to crash into each other on my way to work. What happened? I can't wait. I have to find my colleague. One of my colleagues, talking about what was happening, because this situation has moved from being meaningful to significant. That was life leads... both leads, both, I think to expand, and I think to challenge the cognition, the thinking and the act in my life. Chapter 3. Applying Meaningful Experiences [ Music ] Title: Applying Shared Meaningful Experiences in the Classroom [ Slide end: ] Bernadette Van Den Tillaart: Establish some meaningful experiences, because I cannot assume that I have meaningful experiences. Meaningful to the child, at least, but also to both of them so they can share. But if there would already be some meaningful experiences, then I-- then I would suggest maybe to the teacher or when she ask me about it I would maybe say, "OK is there-- in that meaningful experience, can you find something that is a tiny change. Something novel, but only slightly maybe, not too big, so that it's-- the whole experience is completely different but just enough different, that it really peaks the attention and gets some... excitement-- be it a little bit anxiety, be it curious, be it really interested, and then you see how the child responds, and from there builds the conversation. And I think then if this little variation, you can of course create it, but sometimes it just happens. And I think if it just happens, then that is actually a chance for the teacher, not-- now we're out of the routine, we have a problem, how do we get to the routine? How do we get back in that familiar, meaningful experience? No, use it. Just stop whatever you do, and focus your attention on what the child focuses on - on that novelty, and that variation in the experience, and then let's see what the child does. Being co-presence, doing the meaningful experience, having their-- your-- and then with the excitement having your attention both directed, and to the same and to each other. So it's not just like... if somebody's having-- not just that you're both focusing on what was different, but in addition to that, or tat the same time you need to focus on each other too, so you both can talk about it, and then further establish conversation, but actually also expand concept development. You know, it's those little moments, are really windows to expand knowledge about the world. Knowledge about how are we going to cope with this variation... How are we make it fun, or anxious, and can I share in that. So, there's so many opportunities in that little moment. So, what I see then, often, is that a teacher really does that you would do in an interaction, you know? First affirm. But the first part, she uses words, which a child cannot perceive at all, you know with hearing impaired. And if she would even sign, cannot perceive it with vision, and then she starts signing about her own initiative, or the answer, or the next thing. So it is sometimes very difficult... for people, because it's the interactive part, the first affirmation is so intuitive, right? But we do that so... in spoken words, or in signs if you are deaf, and now even the elements of communication that you're not so much aware of, like this mirroring and affirmation-- you have to do that also in a tactful way and that is-- that is an awareness. [ Music ] Chapter 4. To Be the Affirming Mirror Title: To Be the Affirming Mirror [ Slide end: ] Tillaart: So you look for every movement, you look for every touch, you-- and that is your first focus, and that is with your hands or your body, you try to do the same that a child knows that you have attended to the child, they have perceived it, and then you maybe imitate it, and you let the child feel-- oh, I saw you do this. Are you scared? Yes, it felt like this? Or oh, do you think it went down. So that you first-- the first respond to that with you, imitate and affirm first, and whatever happens next you do not know, because maybe what you want to do is first then stop. And not have immediately your own-- all the thoughts you have yourself, and not making suddenly plans. [Laughing]. Vege: Do you mean being in a kind of a regulation where, when do I-- focusing- focusing on my own plans, my own expressions, together with- with my partner? And then do I regulate and catch the action and the expressions, the emotions of your partner? Tillaart: Yep! Vege: And I think this is very difficult because-- and challenging, and what we need to develop as competent partners, I think it's a long way to go, and we have to focus on it. Tillaart: Mm-hmm. Vege: Because it depends on-- for me when I try to look into different kind of scenarios, I think it depends on which kind of scenarios. If the scenario is like the one where I'm first of all-- we are in a starting point, or something. And when I start I have to first of all direct my attention to what you are attentive to. Tillaart: Mm-hmm. Vege: So then, mostly all on my... my... action into this interaction situation, is based on mirroring... you. What you are doing, what kind of movements you are doing. But somewhere-- always somewhere-- at least, if you are talking about this-this very early level of com- developing communication. The child is dependent upon me being a partner, coming with new suggestions for something to do. Tillaart: Yes. Vege: Then I'm moving in... into the situation of... suggesting something, but in the moment I suggest something, I must, at the same time, I must be aware of being the mirror, which is really attentive of the reaction of the child. But I have-- this is-- this is really complex-- Tillaart: It is. Vege: Because this-- then we-- when we are on this track together, then, we can't just stop, and- and- and... I- I let your attention towards something be something that- that really make us move away to try another thing. I- I have to-- yes to be a mirror, but meeting your reactions, it could be emotional, saying something, "Oh it's exciting," and I guess it is possible to be this kind of mirror. React estimator, expressing again, affirming the child's feelings, emotions. Tillaart: In a tactile way, right? Vege: In a tactile way. Tillaart: Yes. Vege: I can put it there, but I can also-- and I need to make a coherent action. I can be the one who is also... su- supporting us together, to- to be on this boat. As I know I was talking about, on this boat toward something. You have to keep rowing, [ Laughter ] we have to keep sitting in this boat, and... being in this coherent action. Unless if you stop, and stop, and stop, and stop and be only presence, I think. Tillaart: Yes. Vege: So this is- this is the challenge, to move between being the mirror, but also the one who is really the most competent partner who support the child-- Tillaart: Yes. Vege: To stay in the boat. [ Music ] Chapter 5. The Co-Present Partner Title: The Co-Present Partner [ Slide end: ] Tillaart: When I get into a classroom or a home... with a child, then sometimes it seems easier... for parents or teachers to come up with new ideas, if they-- if they are attuned or not, but that is what they want to do. They have mostly the intention to come up with ideas, and it is much harder for them, that when the child makes a movement, or a touch, or a sound, to stop their hands and their minds, and their whole body, and then shift to what they have seen, and first give attention to that, before they include their own suggestions, which of course are attuned to that. And that is although-- and then sometimes, although, it may seem artificial, sometimes I split it out a bit, so that- that- that they maybe first start really looking at the hands, at the body, at the toes, at-- maybe this movement. Just to see what the child is doing. To just get an eye for it. Get a feel for it. And when they start seeing it, because a lot of times if you ask them, "Oh what did she just do? Oh!," because it went so quickly and you don't have eyes for it. But when they really start seeing it, then they can mirror. They cannot mirror, before they have recognized it, right? Vege: No, that's true. Tillaart: So, sometimes I first have to split it out a little bit. And what is then very helpful, I think, and yes, that's why we use so much video [Laughing]. Vege: [Laughing] Yes. Tillaart: Is that we use video, right? Vege: I should comment upon that, because is it [Indiscernible] then... that's important. So use-- of use of video. Tillaart: Yes. Vege: And video [Indiscernible], because the video can really tell me, if I really was the co-present partner. Was I the one who was moving... in my own direction-- Tillaart: Mm-hmm, of attention. Vege: And-and we do that. We can't-- we can't-- it is not possible not to have these experiences of being the partner who is moving towards another direction. But looking at the video. Looking... and analyze it. I say, "Oh my." At this moment my child-- my deafblind child did that kind of movement, with the leg or the arm, or whatever. And he or she really tried to- to- to... give something into the situation, to express something. Tillaart: Mm-hmm. Vege: But I was so on my own track. So, I lost it. Exactly in that moment, I was not the co-present partner, anymore. Yes, exactly. I lost it. Yes. You were present, right? In your own presence, like the child is in their own presence. But that coordination-- Vege: That's true. Tillaart: Isn't recognized. [ Music ] Chapter 6. Becoming a Tactile Mind Title: From a Hearing and Sighted Mind to a Tactile Mind [ Slide end: ] Tillaart: Being in your hearing sighted mode, right? Your hearing and sighted mind. You know, if you-- if you-- if you ask yourself, OK now let me see if I see when my child-- my student is doing. Let me try to pay attention to that. So let to see them. And if you, then, do the same as the child learns is it a touch, is it a movement, is it the jerk? Whatever it is. But, if you then-- then you start to feel with your own hand, or your own body if you do the same, what the child did. And then you can get kind of the same tactile impression as what a child felt, and especially if you then not only do the same movement, but if you think, oh this was kind of... really the muscle stressed, or very relaxed hand, or a quick movement, or a slow movement that all these-- all these elements, right? If you really-- then you can imagine the tactual world, and then you get better picture of how it is for the child. What do you want to say? Vege: No I was just thinking, in the moment we are really... in the tactual world of the other person; touching, trying to perceive in this small, small... reaction from... a communication partner with deaf blind, then we are co-present. I think the big problem for me has been, very often, that I'm-- I'm not, too often, in this particular situation, where I'm really so occupied by thinking of being together with you, and your way of staying here. I move so fast, I don't even think about it-- into my own mind. And it is not only because I can still sit here, having these hands, touching you, but my mind [ Laughter ] my... direction of my mind thinking of what I'm now going to plan for-- oh sorry-- that is what split me-- Tillaart: Yeah. Vege: From being co-present. Even though, I'm still here touching you. Tillaart: Yeah, it is really, you have to have, yourself, the tactile attention. Vege: Yes. So you have to have this tactile attention. And it is possible at least [Laughing] in kind of a way to have this-- to be aware of, "Oh, now she's doing something!" She wants-- she wants my attention to follow her, to listen to her, and at the same time don't miss your plans, because they are also important. Tillaart: Yeah. Vege: Because this is about creating a shared experience, which is coherent, so it is possible for the deafblind child to follow you and understand this, and this, and this is what's going to happen. And this happening, just now. Tillaart: Yes, but don't you think that it's also... if you have these plans and ideas, even if they're the smallest ones, and the child is something else... than you had in mind... to... you know, it took me awhile, to trust... that even if I would veer off from my plans-- because sometimes they were important plans maybe-- to trust that if I would follow the lead of the child, and if I would follow and affirm, and then see what kind of turn exchange comes from that, that there will be a moment somewhere-- maybe you had a little conversation-- a natural moment, that when the child is attending to me then, again, to bring in what actually I have in my mind. So it's not that you can't-- it's not that it's completely gone, then. But you have to trust that that moment comes again. You know if you think, okay, if I'm not following the child- if I'm not following the child, and then everything that I had in mind will not happen anymore, because probably this and that will happen-- no, it's really the trust that you can come back. Vege: Yes, but it was so easy to understand her when she said this crab expression, because it was a shared express... Experience. Experience. So I recognized it immediately, and you can see how fast I move into your perspective of the situation. Yes, immediately, right? Your change of topic. Because I knew-- I know very well what you mean, because it's shared. In the moment she's trying to tell me something else. It could be like talking about this. I don't understand what you mean. Let us talk about the orange. You remember yesterday? What could this be? It could be cutting the hair two days ago. But I didn't know about it. So it is so difficult to follow her change, and how ready I am to really do that. Trying to follow this change of topic, and to be really co-present in her here and now, thinking, trying to express it. And yes, and I also think that even, even-- when she does this, and you do not understand what it means, maybe that is not the most important thing at that moment. Vege: Mmm. Nooo. Tillaart: The most important thing is when you did this-- Vege: Yess. Tillaart: That you let her know, "Oh I see what you're doing." So you do something like this, and you're thinking about something like this? And maybe there's a rec- recognition of meaning, and maybe you can figure it out together, and maybe not. Maybe you just cannot figure it out, but you still have shown her, then, that, "Oh you're thinking of that. I'm following you. Now we talk about that." Vege: I totally agree! That is still being co-present. Tillaart: That's still being co-present. Vege: The affirming thing, I see what you are trying to express, I see what you are doing, not just moving away into my own line of my own attention. [ Music ] Chapter 7. Tactile Mirror Title: Tactile Mirror [ Slide end: ] Vege: I think it's about being the tactile or bodily mirror of the deafblind person. So he can feel. Tillaart: Tactile mirror. Vege: As the person he just was-- Tillaart: Yes. Vege: So they're affirming your movement by touch and bodily movement, is to show you what the person you-- who you just was in this bodily tactile way. I think it's-- Tillaart: So it's more than just a movement. It is really mirroring the person, right? Montgomery: Emotion. Tillaart: And emotion, yeah. Vege: And at the same time. And that- that's a big challenge of course, because then we are mirroring the thing here-- the child. We are using our facial expressions in- in a very, very... same way, I think. So how can we do it? Of course, it has to be touch, it has to be our hands, mirroring the feelings through touch, movement, vibrations. And I- I think it's very exciting, because I think it's so... it's so... it is really possible to do it. Tillaart: Oh easy-- actually, easy if you're used to it. Vege: Yes, and if I really mean it. Tillaart: Yeah. Vege: Do you remember this- this boy, or this man, who was-- he had his eye, which hurts and he tried take my hands to his- to his eyes, because it was hurting. Tillaart: Yeah. Yeah. Vege: And he wants me to, in a way, I think affirming him, mirroring him. And I was thinking afterwards, because it was so easy-- I understood that it hurts, and what do I do, when I meet the people-- the person I really mean and I want to affirm you. I really want to say, "Yes I understand it." Yes my hands. My eyes and my face will do it, but my-- you will- you will... feel my touch, "Oh, I can feel it hurts! I can feel it hurts! Oh... oh... oh, my, my, my, my!" I think my hands could be the mirror, which give you the touch of the feelings. I try to affirm you this. Tillaart: And it does not only mirror the touch and the movements and all of that. It mirrors also the emotion that is felt, and it mirrors a tactile picture of the person, in that-- in the person's presence, in the present moment here-- the here and now, how the person is. So now you are this person look in a tactile mirror what you feel that your partners doing. You are this person now. You are the person who has your face wrinkled up, who feels pain, who is-- or muscle tension and everything. You are now this person, so this tactile mirror gives you feedback about who you are, and then this tactile mirror makes you more aware of who you are. Not just that a pain and everything is driving you, but you become more aware of what you are experiencing. When we keep thinking, you know, that we see it in the facial expressions, because that's what we do visually. Then we stay in our visual mode. So-- but if we move to the tactile modes, we are not going to look at facial expression, but we know with the facial expression-- well we look at it because we get information. By-- with facial expression you look at the shape of the mouth, you look at the muscle tension, you look at eyebrows and eyes-- you know, you look at everything. But then, all that is happening here, actually in the same way, but in a tactile form happens in there. So, what is the muscle tension? What is the shape? What-- is it clammed? Is it open? You know, it looks different, but it also feels different. Is it really this open? Is it... directed to something? And then, is it curious going out? Is it scared? Is it open? I'm-- just let me know, you know? I want to talk with you. So with all these things that we have in our facial things, and the same actually in our voice and intonation, all these elements of language that are not spoken words or signs, they play out completely in the hand. [ Music ] Chapter 8. Tension & Emotion in Interaction Title: Tension and Emotion in Interaction [ Slide end: ] Tillaart: It also means then that-- and then you see the tension, or you see the opening to something that you're curious at and directing towards. Or you see... the happiness, Right? And you want to share that. You cannot do that by laughing back with your voice, or with your whole face. You know, you can do it like this little boy in the video who did-- he was seven months old, he did this with laughing. So the only thing-- you know, it is-- in a way if you're in the tactile mode, it's not difficult at all. Because you just-- if the child is okay, and otherwise you do it here, and you make the same movement and with the same tension-- Vege: Oh, funny, funny, funny-- I can even put the language on it, which I should do. Tillaart: Yes, which you should do anyhow. Vege: Laughing, laughing-- it's a totally different way of talking about emotions-- this is this kind of thing [Laughing] Hoo Hoo hoo hoo! This is, "Oh, this is the scary thing." Tillaart: But if- if- if you- if you do all that, right, and you- and you- you... let the person with deafblindness know that you are attentive, and you have perceived it, by doing this, then you also share it. And by this sharing, the person become more aware of their own emotions. And then what you're saying, you know, first this is kind of gestural bodily thing, but... if you- if you affirm it, more often then you share it, and you do it more often, and not only now, but maybe tomorrow, too. Then this movement is not just when you're laughing, but it comes removed, a little bit from the actual experience. And then doing this gets also the meaning of laughing, even if you're not laughing, because it-- this reminds you, then, about when you were laughing, because it feels and is exactly the same as when you're doing it when you're laughing. So at that moment, then you start making it you know, beyond the actual experience, only a little bit removed, and that is when you move then to building meaning about this, so that it starts referring to emotions. So then every child is [ Inaudible ] and feels something is played with for the other person, and is just sitting by himself, but feels what he's playing with, so you may not only see the smile coming, right? Remembering, reminiscing about what happened with that thing that he played with, but with the touching you may even see something like this-- not-- "Oh!" Which is the real laughing, but just thinking about the laughing. Vege: Mm-hmm. Tillaart: And this thing, this movement that is a little bit removed from the actual experience, right? So then that is what we call the BET's. [ Music ] Chapter 9. Bodily Emotional Traces Title: Bodily Emotional Traces (BETs) [ Slide end: ] Tillaart: Thinking about the laughing. Vege: Mm-hmm. Tillaart: And this thing, this movement that is a little bit removed from the actual experience, right? So then that is what we call the BET's. Vege: Then we are moving directly into this bodily emotionally BET's. Tillaart: BET's. And it's a T is from trace, right? Vege: Yes. Tillaart: The T is from trace, because this is an impression. Vege: This is traces is coming. Being issue for us too-- the deafblind child talking about this. She's sitting just after the situation, having these movements, it's showing me the traces. In a visual way even. Tillaart: Yes. And why is the word trace? Because in the moment with the... experience of laughing together, and you do that together. Then, especially you do it together, and you have fun together. Then, that leaves memory traces, especially if it is bodily and emotionally, right? Because more emotion, stronger memory. So, even if it's-- if you think about the shape of the toy you played with, or how the toy vibrated, or what the toy whatever did, and what you did together. But the laughing-- the emotion is always connected to what you do. You cannot have experiences without emotions. Being bored is also kind of emotion, but, you know, being happy, like in-- you know? Something is scary, so you always have emotions, right, with what you do. So when you experience it, then, that emotion that you feel, with the action you did with the toy, being it pulling at something and then... it vibrates. So, that's them, Then, feeling happy about it, that together leaves a memory trace, together. Not only this, not only this, but if it happens at the same time-- right? It leaves a memory... trace. So the trace... you cannot shape. So a BET's, if we talk about BET's-- you cannot see a BET... when it is created. But then, if the child thinks back, later on, and is sitting there, and feeling same toy, and making same movements-- maybe it cannot do itself but feel-- thinking about it, reminiscing. And that trace... comes back, that memory trace about, "Oh, the toy that I played with this person, and we laughed so much together." When that trace comes up, the body may just-- then the trace may bring up the movement that happened in the actual experience. And that is then an expression of a trace. Vege: Mm-hmm. Tillaart: Does it make sense? There's an expression of a trace. So, it means, then, that... that if we see children making movements, or touching, or doing some positions, or anything, then we can think, "Okay, I see it. What could it mean?" And it always means something. Vege: And is it so about bodily emotional traces, this memory traces. We have two challenges. One is to de- detect when the deafblind person, himself, is making one kind of expression, connected to these bodily emotional traces. And the other one is to evoke... these traces, because that's my experience. That there is left, much more bodily emotional traces, than we should believe. But the deafblind person, himself, in this first part of his life, is still not able yet to initiate it. So he need a partner who can touch these traces. You remember, like when Ingrid was picking this apple. Tillaart: Yeah. Vege: I did the first movement, touch the traces from yesterday about picking the apple. And then she was-- that's been evoked and she followed up-- "Yes, Gunnar it was-- this- this is the traces from yesterday, left in my body and mind. So we have two challenges. To see and understand, and recognize their traces when it's expressed by the person himself, but the other... part of it-- and it's only possible when we have been co-present-- Tillaart: Shared the experience. Vege: And take it into my own body and mind, what you are experiencing now. Then I can re-create it again. Sometimes not very difficult. Talking about... drawing up the crab. Of course, that was like it was. It was not very difficult at all! Putting it in the hand. Okay, I took the crab. "Ingrid, do you remember? I took the crab." Then Ingrid is herself, she is now being... remembering. So she- she- she put her hand in this position, waiting for the crab, not coming now because it was the history abut yesterday. But the trace was here, waiting for it to be... touched again. And then I can only ask her, "What have we done?" And then she's doing this one. Tillaart: She is. Vege: Yes. Tillaart: This happened. So- so- so, if you have shared experiences, you know, if you build those in the actual situation of the here and now, and you're co-present, and you're doing it together in the tactile mode, then there are traces in the child, or a student, and you have your own tactile memory traces, because you did it together with hands and the body. And then, when- when the child's comes with it, or when you want to bring it back, can be both situations. But it both situations, you try to create that the child has an active role, too. Like you describe, you just bring up a bit, and she continues, right? Vege: Yes. Montgomery: Love you guys, thank you so much. [ Music ] Title: Special Thanks to: Bernadette Van Den Tillaart, gunnar Vege, Chris Montgomery and everyone at the Texas Deafblind Symposium 2015. Music provided by: www.Bensound.com Copyright 2015 Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired.