TRANSCRIPT - An Interview with Barbara Miles >>Chris: Hi. We're going to introduce ourselves and I will start by saying that I'm Chris Montgomery and I work for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired in Austin and I am part of the Outreach Department and the Deafblind education team. >>Matt: My name is Matt Schultz and I too am a member of the Texas School for the Blind Deafblind outreach team. And like Chris, I'm an ed consultant. That means I work in school districts across the state with children, their teachers, and their families. >>Barbara: Hi, I'm Barbara Miles. I live in Vermont, which is far away from here, and I've just been in Texas for nearly a week now and had a wonderful time, an amazing time talking with both Chris and Matt and also doing some trainings with teachers and people who work with children who are Deafblind. And I'm just about retired and I am old and it is one of the most wonderful things in my life that I've spent all this time in this field. So I'm just really grateful for the chance to be here and to tell stories about my experiences with children and parents over many, many years now. >>Chris: Well, Barbara, before we were having these cameras roll, we talked a little bit. And one of the things that you've been telling Matt and I is that you really wanted to pass the torch, so to speak. The metaphor of 'all right, I'm going to come down here one more time, you guys' because we're so persuasive. We saw you in the parking lot in Massachusetts and talked to you into coming down, but-- at the DBI conference-- but you've said that you want to really kind of step away-- last time you're coming to Texas to do this. And so I just wonder the kind of-- the question that I ask you when the cameras weren't rolling. Your ideas on passing the torch and what that means to you and then also for you and your career, if there are any-- has there been anybody that's passed the torch to you and what did that mean? >>Barbara: Wow, those are big questions. >>Chris: They are big questions. >>Barbara: So as far as I mean, my time here, this time has taught me that I never did anything alone. I did it with students. I did it with families. I did it with mentors in the field and who included a number of people that I think are on your Texas website because you all have brought so many wise people in the field here, and I'm indebted to every one of them. And I'm also indebted to every child, just about every child I've ever interacted with who's Deafblind or not. And I-- my aspiration is to learn from every one of them. And when that's been the case, I've learned so much. And I can learn, I can learn from failures as well as successes, so yeah. So does that... >>Chris: It makes me think the way I framed that question, I was really in my mind thinking about, you know, whether it would be a teacher that you had. You've mentioned-- I can't remember her name-- but your director who had given you some ideas to sit for a period of time and just be with the student before lunch. >>Barbara: That was Chris Castro at Perkins many years ago. Yeah. >>Chris: And so I'm thinking of people like that. But but I-- who have may-- who may have impacted you like she did, but you just said something that made me go, 'Wow, well. Really, it's the kids...' [indiscernible] >>Matt: They were the teachers. >>Barbara: They were. >>Matt: You know, you mentioned that you learn from your failures and you also mentioned you had a long career. And I know there's many lessons and many lessons hard-learned. I'm wondering, what-- are there any specific that come to mind? Maybe thinking back to when you were a new teacher and that experience of looking to your children was new? What lesson did you-- what big lesson to learn? >>Barbara: The failures? You're talking specifically about... >>Matt: Well, if that's where maybe a new understanding was born. >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: You know, so it doesn't have to be a failure, but a shift in thinking. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, back to what Chris just asked me, that time when I was a- I think- it was a second or third year teacher. I was teaching this little girl who was very oppositional and she didn't want to do anything I wanted her to do and she was-- she was fierce. And that was when Chris Castro suggested that I sit down with her every day and just have a conversation. Just talk with her about whatever she wanted to talk about. And my supervisor told me that I am so lucky because most of the-- I mean, I was a pretty new teacher and I just thought, 'I have to have lessons. I have to like do stuff that is important.' And she said, 'Well, just take 15-20 minutes every day and just sit with this girl and see what she'd like to talk about and do it right before lunch.' That was what she told me. And so I've taken that to heart because I think it's good to have a sort of natural close to a conversation. So I did that and it was amazing, but completely turned around my relationship with this little girl. And she listened to me after that, but I had to listen to her first. So that was sort of the-- I think that was maybe the beginning of my interest in conversation as a real important-- what do I want to say-- an important center to my thinking about children who are Deafblind. And a center to my feeling because I think good conversation is something we all know in our bones what that feels like. So, thank her for giving me the permission to have that. >>Chris: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, I heard you also talk about-- to the teachers that you were talking to over the last couple of days to give kind of that same idea back to them of give yourself permission. If it's five minutes a day just to be and just to be patient, though too, to wait because it may not happen immediately. And we talked a little bit about how some of the kids that you had worked with that were very low language and didn't have a lot of motor movement and stuff, how you had just sat with them very quietly and still and breathed with them. >>Barbara: Mm-Hmm. >>Chris: And what happened with that? >>Barbara: Mm hmm. Right. And it doesn't even take five minutes to have a few turns in life, you know, like moving from one place to another or whatever. Little conversations can happen even in very small, very short spaces of time. Yeah. >>Matt: Why, why is it that you think Deafblind kids might be at risk or lack an opportunity to have conversations the way their peers might? And how does that impact your thinking or how might it impact our thinking as educators that work with these kids? >>Barbara: Well, a child who doesn't have vision or hearing or has very little of it hasn't had the opportunity to see that other people have conversations or overhear the conversations, or maybe hasn't had partners that evoke just this sense of what it's like to have a back and forth interaction. Although, I mean, you have to think about it, just about every child has had some experience of comfort with another person. And that's what we're looking for, kind of a trust and a comfort. >>Chris: Connection. >>Barbara: Yeah, a connection. And if they haven't, there's the potential there. That's my belief and faith, ultimately. Yeah. So does that answer what you were thinking about? Or do you have anything to add? >>Matt: Well, no. It just occurs to me that we don't always think that that's the heart of their program, you know, or that that's the heart of learning. >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: And it has dawned on me through listening to you and your experiences, those kids that I have had similar experiences. That it's not until we get to that position where we're willing to look to them and to listen to them and follow their lead that they then follow our lead. And so that modeling of giving up that kind of control kind of changes the dynamic, you know, you describe that one student as a little oppositional. >>Barbara: Yeah, right right. >>Matt: You know, I think that all teachers have felt at times that they're in that mode where the kid, 'I want this and they want that.' And so, I think it's enlightening for people to hear that when you're in that mode that you don't need to exert more control, right? >>Barbara: Yes. >>Matt: But giving up that control and just looking to where their interests are, what their topics are enjoying them, that then it kind of turns it on its head. And then the teaching, or then the learning begins, you know? >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: Does that makes sense? >>Barbara: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know the person better. So you know the way to spark their enthusiasm and joy. And that's-- I mean, we don't learn when we're tense. And I remember Dr. Van Dijk saying that only when one is calm and alert does learning really happen? And yeah it's true for me. >>Chris: Yeah. >>Matt: Yeah. >>Chris: It's like-- I don't know. I think that's just really cool stuff to think about. You know, in-- and I've been reading-- rereading some of your articles and your books and stuff and somewhere some in some place you used the word 'teacher-ease,' you know? I thought that was so great. And I just think it's kind of what you both are saying or I guess we're all saying, you know, you get caught in this thing where it's my job as a teacher to come in and impart information and instead of relaxing, I guess, and having this conversation that -- that's the human thing. And it feels like, you know... >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: How can you be a teacher without having a human thing? I guess. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. >>Chris: Does that makes sense? >>Barbara: Totally. Yeah. And when you said the word teacher-ease, I immediately thought of that thing that teachers are taught to -- well, I was like, I can't speak for all programs, but I was taught to give commands, you know? Good luck with a Deafblind child. And that stops the conversation because it's just two turns. Yeah. Like you do this. >>Chris: And then that person not complying with what I just said. >>Barbara: Exactly. >>Matt: Sometimes I wonder if people realize the connection between that and then the bumps in the road that they experience with a kid. You know, some of our students are described as having behaviors, you know, or being behavior issues or problems. And so is that something that you talk to people about that they're not having behaviors, but maybe they're sick of being told what to do all day? And so for a teacher listening and thinking about this, are there some kind of simple things that you think they can do to shift their approach and their thinking that would be helpful? >>Barbara: Well, I think it's as much an attitude of shifting their own view of the child and themselves as a teacher. You know, we talked in the last couple of days, I like the word 'respect' because it means, literally, 'to look again.' So the willingness to look again, to see an aspect of a child that one hasn't seen before. And for me, a really early. person that helped me-- I think I was talking with you about it -- was Anne Donnellan, who wrote an article about-- if my memory serves me right -- behavior as communication. I mean, we all have behavior. >>Matt: If we're alive, right? >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. >>Chris: Maybe some of mine's get at some of the time. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. And good and bad. I mean, what is that really, you know, but communication happens, you know, all the time in subtle ways and behavior is a form of communication. I mean, that's how I've always looked at it. So if a child is acting out, they're communicating something and there are skillful and non-skillful ways of having a conversation in that situation. >>Matt: Mm hmm. >>Barbara: And one only learns so by trying and by having that core value of respect and equality in some way. I mean, like you and I are both human. But I'm older. You know, as a teacher, you know, you have responsibilities, you have to take care of them. >>Matt: Yeah, you don't just sit there all day >>Barbara: And you don't just sit there. >>Matt: Do whatever they want to do or just look at them. >>Barbara: No, no, not at all. Because I mean, that's why Chris Castro is so wise in saying, you know, have these conversations that are on her topics like just for a while before lunch. So, oh, guess what? It's lunchtime. We got to go to lunch or before some activities so that you've given yourself permission really to have a natural end to the conversation. And yeah, and it-- >>Matt: Well, as you're saying that I'm thinking about, you know, that turn-taking piece. That giving a turn and taking a turn is just essential to human interaction, right? And so if we try to teach a kid before they know how to give a turn and take a turn, there's no-- you can't do it right. So, yeah, yeah. >>Barbara: And you know, the language that's just now occuring to me is that I frame it the same way, but I think of it in terms of speaking and listening. And because that's the terms, you know, so when someone else is speaking, I'm listening. When I'm speaking, I hope that they're listening. So but it's the same concept. I think, you know? >>Chris: I think that's great. I love I love that. I'm gonna start saying that. >>Matt: It's less technical too. >>Barbara: Which makes me think of the circle of courage and the talking stick, the Native American talking stick, which does that, you know. Like, we're talking peace, which allows the person who's speaking to sort of have the floor. >>Matt: In a way that's really clear to everyone, right? On who's speaking and who's listening. And so that clarification seems like maybe for our kids is important because they don't get it as easily with their vision or their hearing. >>Barbara: Right. >>Chris: And I have to think that for some of our kids, they've not really known that they've had a voice until you start to listen, you know? >>Barbara: Exactly. I'm remembering now just the fact that actually turn-taking is hard-wired in every person because it happens. With a mother and baby, when the mother is nursing or, you know, in any way, breastfeeding or giving a bottle, there's this natural thing that happens is there is a-- I remember reading this and I was going, 'Oh yeah, that makes sense.' Something called 'the first pause sucking reflex,' which is built into every infant. And so the baby will be nursing and pause, and the mother has to do something to encourage-- or naturally does something. I wouldn't say she's thinking about it at all, but you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now you're doing that and I'm now-- I'm taking my turn, and then you suck, and then I'm taking-- that kind of thing. You know. >>Chris: It's built in. >>Barbara: It's built in. And I remember when I read that I got much more confident about conversation as like the basis for, yeah, [indiscernible] >>Matt: Makes a lot of sense. >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: I've read about that first pause too and something that I thought was interesting was that as a part of that process, the nursing process, the feed-- even the feeding process, when the baby is six months or eight months, whenever it starts to eat solid foods-- that sometimes something that happens is that in that dance of interaction of, you know, are you ready for this bite and the baby opens and then the mom goes in. That then there is like shared smiling, which is a big developmental milestone. And so I wonder, do you think that that shared emotion that comes out of the listening and speaking do you think that that plays a role in learning and...? >>Barbara: Absolutely. And you know what, now what I'm remembering is Selma Fraiberg and reading her. In the early days before there were video cameras or anything, she, you know, she was a psychiatrist who worked with blind children. And she took film of these blind children and she noticed that a lot of the mothers of blind children were depressed. >>Chris: Disconnecting... >>Barbara: Because there wasn't that exchange of smiles. And so she took film and she looked at the film and she realized she had the hypothesis which turned out to be really true, that the blind babies were actually smiling with their hands. And they were like -- when they were happy, they were doing something like this. >>Matt: Mm-Hmm. >>Barbara: And so she taught the mothers to pay attention to the hands of the children and know that they were smiling and it evoked smiles in the mothers and was very helpful for them. >>Chris: Yeah, because it's gotta go both ways. >>Barbara: Has to go both ways. Like the video that I showed yesterday of the woman who the -- Patricia and the caregiver when she noticed the baby's smile, she did like this, and when she was smiling, she allowed Patricia to touch her mouth. And it was so... >>Matt: To touch those emotions. >>Barbara: To touch, right. >>Chris: Or acknowledge them and just that I see you smiling. That was so beautiful. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. >>Chris: You know, Matt-- there's this thing that I videotaped of Matt a long time ago, and it's funny as a side note, you know, you've talked about how you've watched some of these videos so many times. So Matt and I-- and it's probably torture for Matt because he's in the video-- but we've watched it so many times, you know, and it's the same thing. You see something new all the time. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. >>Chris: But Matt's working with our our friend Jarvis. And I just think it's this most beautiful moment where there's some place that Jarvis hasn't been. And they're exploring drums, and there is a moment where Matt taps on this drum and it startles Jarvis. And Matt just goes, 'It's OK, you're scared,' you know, and it's just like, 'Wow, you know,' I mean, that's exactly... >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah,. >>Chris: What you should do. Yeah. And I just feel like, I mean-- >>Matt: Well, and that makes me think of a story of shared emotion with him that I think was a moment where I learned a lesson from a student. And it was he was supposed to go home. You know, he was at Texas School for the Blind, a residential school, so knowing when he goes home on the weekend was like the most important information. You know, 'When am I going to go see my mom again?' And occasionally it wasn't a regular schedule. You know, holidays would happen and the pattern would be broken. So it was always a topic of discussion. And so there was one week where we had told him all week he was going home. And then at the end of the week, I went to a training-- I was out on that Friday -- and having told him he was going to go home all week on Friday and then at the end of the day, he got to his dormitory and discovered that he wasn't going home. And they, the dorm staff-- I know. >>Barbara: Oh, boy. >>Matt: Obviously this was distressing to Jarvis, and so his dorm staff was trying to help him and talk to him about it and explain what had happened and to varying degrees of success. You know, they weren't sure the language that he would understand in that context, and they said, 'Well, call Matt and see if he has any ideas.' And they called and I said, 'Well, I'm about to come back to the school, so let me come in and say-- talk to him.' And I remember approaching him thinking, 'I have no idea what I can say to explain this.' And when he, you know, I said hello and who I was, and he just grabbed me and hugged me and cried. And I just I didn't-- at that point wasn't thinking about what I could do other than hug him. And we-- I remember we kind of rocked together for a little bit and I thought, 'Well, this is what I can do right to be with him and this feeling. And then, you know, I don't know how long that lasted, but a little while. But I remember then signing, 'Sorry.' >>Barbara: Mm hmm. >>Matt: While we were still in that embrace. And it just it felt nice, I remember it feeling nice, and Jarvis calmed down and without a lot of other discussion, which he just kind of proceeded through his weekend and all was OK. But I did notice that after that, any time there was an unexpected break or a mistake that someone had made in not being able to explain it to him that they could sign 'sorry.' And it felt like the concept was clear. And therefore, if he had the piece of information that he needed to forgive me. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah, that's a great story. >>Matt: He was a great teacher. Wasn't he, Chris? >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. >>Chris: Big time. >>Barbara: Big time. Yeah. It's the word at the very same time that he's feeling it. >>Matt: 'Oh, I heard you say that.' >>Barbara: Yeah, that Carol Crook had the-- she was a teacher at Perkins, and I admired her so much, and she wrote in 'Remarkable Conversation,' she said the time to sign or say a word. is the moment when you feel-- she might have said 'think,' but I guess I might say feel-- feel that the child has that word in their mind or in their heart. I mean, he was feeling that at the moment that maybe, you know, so strongly and somehow it was-- it's like a body memory of that time and then the safety and then the word all at the same time, you know. >>Matt: So it's like all those emotions working with the kind of cognitive aspect, right? Like, together? >>Barbara: Yeah, I mean, for me, also part of my journey in this field has been, I mean, it's just been amazing over many years, and I have to say I'm not a full-time teacher. I have never been, except for the early years a full-time teacher. But I've had the opportunity to meet many, many Deafblind children and adults and teachers. And one of the things that I've had to learn myself is that I have to be able to hold those feelings in myself in order to acknowledge them and other in others. >>Chris: And that also reminds me of a story that I've constantly reminded of that Jarvis story of Ray and a little guy that I used to work with is from, I think he came to the school when he was like five, you know, which is really, really young. And it was an exceptional sort of thing that he came that early. But he was really had a lot of trouble. He didn't understand where he was at and then, of course, you know, it was just disattached from his mom and stuff like that at that age. But we went on to be really tight, really good friends, you know, and grew very close. And this is a long story and I'll make it short. But one of the things that we did, among other things, was when we would greet each other in the morning, we would-- we would sign 'hug'-- and he had some hearing, he didn't have vision, but he had some hearing-- and I would say 'hug.' And then he'd fall into me, you know, and I squeezed and he like, it was kind of a rough houser or kind of guy. And he would also-- he came to-- that came to be a really nice thing to do with him when he would get upset or scared or something, you know, is that hug thing and a tight squeeze. And he left the school and I went to outreach and I lost touch with him for I don't know, it must have been close to 10 years. I'm not really sure, but something around there. And we got a referral for him. And it's like, 'Oh my God, it's Ray,' and I haven't seen him in forever, what happened to him? I lost touch with him and his mom. And so I went to the school where he was at and he was in really bad shape. He'd just been kind of sitting on this couch for-- nobody talking to him, really for a couple of years. His head was all wrapped up in this bandage. He looked like a mummy. And he had-- the reason for that was because he was really self-abusive, he was banging his head a lot and somebody would get close he'd try to headbutt them and stuff, you know, it's just a really bad thing. And so, you know, I remember it was-- it's such a vivid memory-- but I talked to the teacher for a little while, like 'what's going on?' And he kind of told me, like, 'we just don't know what to do.' You know, we're kind -- was implying that they were all so scared. And I remember going over to this couch and being a little scared myself, you know, it's like, 'what's going to happen? Is he going to remember me? Is he going to try to knock me out, you know, like or whatever?' And I unwrapped all this bandage around his head, you know, and it was just like falling to the floor, like it was just piles of it, it seemed like. And here's Ray standing in front of me instead of being this tall is, you know, like close to six feet and he's like, got facial hair and stuff, you know? And so it's like, 'Wow, you know, and-' >>Barbara: Wow. >>Chris: This crowd had gathered around this, like the call went out down the hall, like 'the guy from Austin's here, you know, like, it's what's going to happen. Let's go check it out.' >>Barbara: Oh boy. >>Chris: And so I'm standing there and there's the circle around us, you know. And I didn't quite really realize that I was really trying to focus on Ray, and I just had his hands in mine and we were kind of doing some, you know, little hand games or something, you know, just to say hi. And I remember, though, that I-- something made me go hug, you know, and getting this hug and kind of tentatively like, is he going to headbutt me if I do this, but bring him close to me. And then the teacher, something, you know, it's-- some stuff happened and the teacher said something, and I turned to look at her and this crowd sort of this, all I can say, is sort of this like gasp or something. It's not quite the way it was, but something I sensed something in the crowd. And I look back and hear after all these years, I was signing hug to me, you know, it was the same kind of thing. It was like that. To me, it was not only like, 'I remember you and I remember this thing that we did and that it was a comfort to me.' And it was-- but it was also like, 'Hey, everybody, I'm somebody,' you know, like, 'I'm somebody in the world, all these people who haven't known that,' yeah, you know, >>Barbara: I'm a person,. >>Chris: I'm a person and... >>Barbara: Human. >>Chris: I remember this guy from 10 years ago. I remember what we did and... >>Barbara: Wow. >>Chris: You know, there's just so much in that simple gesture it seems. >>Barbara: Did you know at all beforehand that he had recognized you before you did that? >>Chris: I still did not. >>Barbara: You still didn't. >>Chris: That was my epiphany to myself. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. >>Chris: I was just like... >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: Wow. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. >>Chris: I absolutely didn't. >>Barbara: Yeah. Wow, so that was the moment when he did this. >>Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >>Matt: Yeah, that just makes me think how rooted memory is in emotion. >>Chris: Yeah, yeah. I think that's the point I was trying to make. >>Barbara: You know, which reminds me of Gunnar Vega's notion of bodily emotional traces. And yeah, I think that confirms that in a way. That's probably the source of memory. And now I'm thinking that in a way, teachers are taught to look forward all the time. I think I was as a teacher, you have a plan, you have like goals, you have this sort of forward looking thing and that's fine. But we also have to look backwards and remember things like, have memory for what has happened. And I believe that the children and adults-- that everyone has memories, sometimes they don't have words attached, but... And that that kind of a view is a way of thinking about many things in Deafblind education. Like, I can say this because I'm so old, but I have all these memories of sort of little milestones and children have memories of-- that are in their bodies. So the way we touch and the way we interact with them is so important. And memory is important, which is why I think there are such things as memory books in the field of Deafblindness, so there are concrete things to make the memories. And I also one of the first signs that I like to teach-- teach? --that I like to expose a child to a lot is remember. 'Remember you and me? Yesterday? We did this,' you know, like so to come in every day with how was yesterday and then how might tomorrow be if given that so before the calendar is the memory. You, know? Like... >>Chris: Yeah. I'm so glad you said that because I-- that was an epiphany for me, you know, like yesterday when you talked about that. >>Barbara: Oh! >>Chris: I was like, of course, you know, would you talk a little bit more about what-- I mean, go further on that thought of you have to have the memory before you... >>Barbara: Well, I guess it's just that every life has its developmental arc and that you can't-- you can only live it forward, but you-- everybody lives also with memories wherever they are, you know. And just realizing that makes me. Respect the children's arc, so even, let's just say that even a child who only lives for a few years, their life still has had an arc to it. And so... well, that's where that's where I'm going now, but ask that question again, because could I say more about memory? >>Chris: It was just this idea that you can't really teach without memories. You know, there's not-- there's newness, but it has to be... >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: Brought you from this experience or this memory that it's built upon almost, you know? >>Barbara: Yeah, that's a good way of saying better than I. >>Matt: I remember you making the comment that memory comes before anticipation? >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: Can you explain what you mean when you say memory comes before anticipation. >>Barbara: Well, I guess they go together, but now I'm relating it to what I heard Jan Van Dijk say one time that calendars, for example, are meant to be for conversation, they aren't just the schedule. >>Chris: What? [Laughing] Yeah, that's amazing! >>Barbara: So that's where my mind went with that. And so-- and they also have to do with relationship. I mean, it matters who is-- who is with a person at a given time. I mean, your story about Ray? Like, there you were and you-- he had that memory. And maybe then the anticipation and just the fact that all those people saw that, you know, maybe then, oh, he has a memory. Guess what? >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: So maybe... >>Chris: There's a person under the advantages. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Right. >>Matt: Well, I know I've heard you talk about how important it is and you mentioned earlier about feeling safe. >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: In order to learn and calm. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. >>Matt: And so if we have those memories of connection, yeah, we can reflect and then out of that reflection comes our feeling of safety and security and trust. And then maybe we can start to be brave enough to look forward and start to anticipate without it being overwhelming, without the unknown. >>Chris: Sometimes you look forwards it's scary sometimes. >>Barbara: It's scary. It's very scary. It can be really. >>Chris: It can be exciting and fun too, but sometimes it's yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah, right. >>Chris: Especially if you don't have a conception of what might happen, you know? >>Barbara: And that all sort of converges in the present moment. You know, in the sense of just like being present. >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Being present for the child or that adult or, I mean, or being present with each other in a way that... Yeah. So if-- and I'm struck by the fact that, yes, safety and belonging and generosity are the forms of the circle of courage. You know, looking at, you know, what are the values that guide us? I mean. And. Yeah. >>Matt: I was going to ask, can you can you talk briefly about what the circle of courage is and how you came to discover it and why you think it's helpful for when thinking about how to support the learning or the development of Deafblind kids? >>Barbara: Yeah, like I said in the training, I was originally introduced to it in Vermont by Larry Brendtro, who came to do a workshop in Vermont about it. And I mean, you happen to be interested in it, too. And probably, you I know. So that made me so happy. And I was just so struck by his whole presentation, but by the wheel of the circle of courage and how the elements of that make up a good life and what you know-- and I'm forgetting what his terms are, but I made an adaptation for Deafblindness. He has four. And so help me... >>Matt: I think mastery is one. >>Barbara: Mastery. >>Matt: There's the-- I think he referred to as the spirit of mastery and the spirit of generosity, the spirit of independence and... >>Barbara: Belonging. >>Matt: And belonging. Yeah. The spirit of belonging. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, both of your stories speak to all those things and most maybe especially belonging, which might be the safety. >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Similar to the safety if we're not alone. Yeah. But maybe goes up, you know, goes with it. And the one I added was understanding, meaning some sense of how the world around me works, which can't be taken for granted by somebody who has impaired vision and hearing because we develop our concepts, we who can see and hear-- less and less all the time, I might add-- we who can see and hear can learn about how the world works just by watching and listening? And kids do. So we need to be mindful of how, you know, how they see and hear. And that, I mean, I guess that piece, I'm just coming to this right now. That piece is really pretty important. We need to be mindful of what they see and hear. And then with the child who's Deafblind sometimes the only avenue if they're totally Deafblind is touch. And here's where I remember and remind people that Helen Keller had two years before she went totally Deafblind and so... The amount that a child learns in two years is I'm sure you're aware of it. >>Matt: As a father. Yeah, yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah, totally right. >>Matt: All he's learned that I didn't teach him. Yeah, that's right. And there was no, no plan. I didn't have IEP goals set out but the... >>Chris: Concept of Spider-Man. [laughing] >>Matt: It came to him, incidentally, that's for sure. >>Barbara: And pirates. >>Matt: [indiscernible] yeah, absolutely. So all that understanding, you know, some kids just get with vision and hearing. >>Barbara: Right? Right. >>Chris: Yeah, it's a big, big world. A big, goofy world. >>Barbara: World, big, goofy world. >>Chris: You, Barbara talked about and you've been talking a lot this few days about a-ha moments. And there was one story that you told that I just love, and I wonder if you had the time to tell it again, and it was about when you really started thinking about touch. And you said that you had stopped teaching for a while and were really working as a potter and you came back to teach again, and I just wonder if you would talk about that. >>Barbara: Yeah, I just talked about that yesterday, I guess, and it was interesting because I left teaching to move back to Vermont because I love Vermont and I then connected with it for many years and had already had some land there and wanted to be back where I felt really comfortable. And I-- I left and I had taken a lot of pottery lessons, which I totally enjoyed and gotten pretty good at it. And so when I got back, I decided to keep going with pottery and I started making pots and selling them and making a living that way, but mainly I spent hours and hours and hours throwing pots. And I realized that my hands got quite sensitive in that way, I mean, I think I've always had sensitive hands, but anyway. And so then I went back to Boston to do something completely different, actually. And then Perkins offered me a job again, and so I went back to Perkins and I was teaching at that time, then teenagers and they had become totally proficient at following sign language with their hands. And so-- and the class that I taught was three teenagers who were all tactile signers, so I thought I was going to be a worse teacher because I hadn't been there for all those years, five years and I didn't really know. >>Chris: 'Can I ride the bike again?' >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. And I actually felt like I knew I was better. And it was because of the sensitivity in my hands. So somehow that coming together was what led to the eventual article that I wrote about talking the language of the hands to the hands. So yeah. >>Chris: That's an amazing sort of journey to that-- I don't know what you call it-- understanding like that deeper understanding of, you know, what all this means? It's just wow. >>Matt: I know you you talk to us a little bit about how that experience and thinking about touch and how it provided you extra insight that led you to think differently about the touch of your students and how they use touch to learn and the various ways they use touch. Can you kinda describe that to us? >>Barbara: Hmmm. >>Chris: You talk about me asking big questions, right? >>Matt: How about your life's work? Awesome, thanks. What I was getting one is you told the story yesterday about touch as a tool and how you felt like it was important to get people to understand that they're using touch more than a tool. >>Barbara: They're using their hands more than a tool. >>Matt: Your hands! I'm sorry. >>Barbara: I was talking about hands as a tool because I was trying to explain how important touch was for blind people and for Deafblind people. And I had developed such respect for the students' hands that I could no longer control them. And so I was trying to figure out how to explain to someone who did the controlling of the hands, which I was taught when I was in school. You know, like this is how you get a blind child to do something. You take their hand and you put it on the mug. >>Chris: Yeah, feel that mug. >>Barbara: [indiscernible] Pick that up and that. And then all of a sudden I realized that, 'Oh, I get it.' I mean, when we have vision we use our hands mostly-- most people use their hands mostly-- under the direction of their eye, so it's like a tool that, I mean, that's my conceptualization of it, but many people are so unaware of their hands that it's just they're always under the guidance of their sight. >>Matt: Sight first then.. >>Barbara: Sight first and then so. But that's not what they need to be used for. For a person who's blind or deafblind, or vision impaired, you know, like they have to be eyes too. And they have to be ears, they have to hear sound sometimes with their hands and then they have to speak with their hands, maybe sign language, you know, they have to. I mean, their hands... >>Matt: Emote, as you were saying earlier. >>Barbara: Emote, yeah. Right, exactly. Oh, that's a whole thing. Like feeling, feeling. Yeah, feeling with your hands. Oh, that's yeah. That's one I didn't put on the list. So that's up to you guys. >>Chris: OK. And that kind of goes to Gunnar, you know, I watch those videos how he's... >>Barbara: Exactly. Exactly right, right? >>Chris: You see, so you can see it when you're watching it. I can't really imagine what it feels like, though. You know, I mean, that must be so powerful. >>Barbara: Yeah. And then he has this gesture that he taught me about. When you-- talk about speaking and listening-- when you're doing tactile sign, like if you're signing with someone you know, and you're signing and then I'm done with my turn. So has he showed you that? >>Matt: I've seen him do it. >>Barbara: And so this is like a communication that's so delicate and it's like, now it's your turn and I'm listening. And then. So this is like, yeah, yeah. >>Matt: Now I'm listening. >>Barbara: Yeah, that's different. >>Everyone: [indiscernible] >>Barbara: So yeah, I remember there was somebody in the training yesterday who is a massage therapist, and I'm pretty sure he probably has a good sensitivity with children because he's had that sort of practice. >>Chris: He does. We've seen it. >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: He's pretty awesome. >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: We started our discussion-- we started our discussion about the value of stories, the idea that you learned from your students. Are there any-- are there any other ones that come to mind or that you want to share with us that you think are important lessons for other people, you know, to hear about or to think about? >>Barbara: Hmmm. Well, one of my goals in coming here was to empower people here to keep gathering stories. And so, I could keep telling stories all day, but just to have that confidence that we all have stories and that every teacher has stories of and-- yeah, I'll tell that story about a time when when I was asked to consult about a young woman who was blind, and she actually had some hearing, but they were worried at the school that her hearing was declining because she had stopped speaking. And so when I went to the school, I asked to observe her all day and I did, and it was true. She barely said a word the whole entire day. And I wouldn't say she was particularly oppositional, she just was mute. And she was blind, and at the end of the day, we had a meeting and the staff were sitting around a big table and there was a young woman I hadn't met there. And I just asked to go around the table and hear from everybody what their observation of the student had been. And they all went around and they all said, 'She's mute, she's mute, she isn't speaking, she isn't speaking.' And then I got to the last person whom I hadn't met, and it was a young woman that was about the age of the student, the girl. I said, 'So are you-- what is your experience? Is she, does she talk with you?' And she said, 'Yeah, she talks all the time.' And I said, 'Oh, what? What does she talk about?' And she said, 'Oh, she talks about make up and she talks about boys, and she talks about music and she talks about clothes.' And I said, 'Oh, and what do you talk to her about?' 'Oh, I tell her about my boyfriend and I tell her about the music I'm listening to and I tell her about all kinds of things that are going on in my life.' And I could just see all the other people were like, 'Oh, OK.' And 'Oh she's not losing her hearing. She just hasn't found mutual topics yet.' >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Or I should say that joint topic, joint attention. So that's-- that experience really informed me because I thought, 'Well, if you're talking about things that the kid is not interested in at all, you can talk all you want.' >>Chris: And it's pretty much how I am too. I mean, just saying, you know. >>Matt: Well, everyone to a certain degree, right? >>Chris: And that's what-- that's what I mean. >>Barbara: Exactly. So that's why we have more than one friendship, you know. And it's because they address different aspects of ourselves. So... Anyway, I don't know if that answers your... >>Chris: That's a really great story. >>Barbara: OK. Yeah, I just like I can't forget it. Obviously. >>Chris: It's a good human life lesson kind of thing. >>Barbara: And it reminds me too of the thing that I said several times in the last couple of days that it grows this feeling, but that we have to trust the students as much as get them to trust us. And those happen, you know, jointly. So just trusting, you know, the intelligence of whoever I'm with, you know, everyone has their own form-- everyone, everyone, everyone-- has their own form of intelligence and including the most... The child that we might think is at least intelligent has their own form of intelligence, you know? And it's up to us to maybe recognize that and trust that. >>Chris: Because it could be profound. You just don't know. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. Probably is profound. >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: You know and... >>Chris: That's what I believe. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. >>Matt: And your stories make me realize and believe, too, that that they have that intelligence there and it's there waiting for-- to share it. That's innate. That there's never been a child that didn't want to share. >>Barbara: Right. >>Matt: And so that's what I think about when you say-- when we when we look to them, when we respect them, we look at again. We're looking again and listening, yeah, we're listening for that essence of who they are and that interest in that all kind of can grow from there. >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: It's a good lesson to learn. >>Barbara: A really good lesson. It's a life, it's a lifetime lesson, believe me. Yeah. >>Chris: Thanks so much for having a conversation with us. >>Barbara: It's my pleasure. Totally. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [end of transcript]