1 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,920 >>Chris: Hi... We're going to introduce ourselves 2 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,960 and I will start by saying that I'm Chris Montgomery  3 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,760 and I work for the Texas School for the Blind  4 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,520 and Visually Impaired in Austin. 5 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,759 And I am part of the Outreach Department  6 00:00:35,759 --> 00:00:38,240 and the Deafblind education team. 7 00:00:38,719 --> 00:00:40,079 >>Matt: My name is Matt Schultz  8 00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:42,200 and I too am a member of the Texas School  9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,200 for the Blind Deafblind outreach team. 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,600 And like Chris, I'm an ed consultant. 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,600 That means I work in school districts across the state  12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,719 with children, their teachers, and their families. 13 00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:55,960 >>Barbara: Hi, I'm Barbara Miles. 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,719 I live in Vermont, which is far away from here,  15 00:00:59,719 --> 00:01:04,879 and I've just been in Texas for nearly a week now  16 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:08,799 and had a wonderful time, an amazing time  17 00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:13,920 talking with both Chris and Matt and also... 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,439 doing some trainings with teachers 19 00:01:18,439 --> 00:01:19,879 and... 20 00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:22,959 people who work with children who are Deafblind. 21 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,840 And I'm just about retired. 22 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,799 And I am old. [laughs] 23 00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:35,400 And it is one of the most wonderful things in my life  24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,640 that I've spent all this time in this field. 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,400 So I'm just really grateful for the chance  26 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:49,400 to be here and to tell stories about my experiences  27 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:58,319 with children and parents over many, many years now. 28 00:01:58,319 --> 00:02:01,319 >>Chris: Well, Barbara, before we were having  29 00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:03,680 these cameras roll, we talked a little bit. 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,000 And one of the things that you've been telling Matt and I  31 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,800 is that you really wanted to pass the torch, so to speak. 32 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,319 The metaphor of 'all right, I'm going to come down here  33 00:02:17,319 --> 00:02:21,319 one more time, you guys' because we're so persuasive. 34 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:23,960 We saw you in the parking lot  35 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,919 in Massachusetts and talked to you  36 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:31,759 into coming down, but-- at the DBI conference--  37 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:38,319 but you've said that you want to really kind of step away--  38 00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:40,639 last time you're coming to Texas to do this. 39 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:41,960 [Barbara laughs] 40 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,159 And so I just wonder the kind of--  41 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:50,639 the question that I ask you when the cameras weren't rolling. 42 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,719 Your ideas on passing the torch and what that means to you  43 00:02:53,719 --> 00:03:00,240 and then also for you and your career, if there are any--  44 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,080 has there been anybody that's passed the torch  45 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,199 to you and what did that mean? 46 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:07,479 >>Barbara: Wow, those are big questions. 47 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:10,000 >>Chris: They are big questions. [Barbara laughs] 48 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,000 >>Barbara: So... 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,360 >>Barbara: As far as... 50 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,599 I mean, my time here,  51 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:22,639 this time has taught me that I never did anything alone. 52 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:28,199 I did it with students. I did it with families. 53 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:33,800 I did it with mentors in the field  54 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,520 and who included a number of people that I think  55 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,159 are on your Texas website [laughs] 56 00:03:43,159 --> 00:03:45,240 because you all have brought  57 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,080 so many wise people in the field here,  58 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:54,599 and I'm indebted to every one of them. 59 00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:59,599 And I'm also indebted to every child,  60 00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:03,800 just about every child I've ever interacted with  61 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,960 who's Deafblind or not. 62 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,080 And I... 63 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,519 My aspiration is to learn from every one of them. 64 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:24,319 And when that's been the case, I've learned so much. 65 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:27,800 And I can learn, I can learn from failures  66 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,240 as well as successes, so... 67 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,120 Yeah. So does that... 68 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,560 >>Chris: It makes me think the way I framed that question,  69 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,000 I was really in my mind thinking about, you know,  70 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,279 whether it would be a teacher that you had. 71 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,720 You've mentioned-- I can't remember her name--  72 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,360 but your director who had given you some ideas to sit  73 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,639 for a period of time and just be with the student before lunch. 74 00:04:57,639 --> 00:05:01,360 >>Barbara: That was Chris Castro at Perkins many years ago. 75 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,360 Yeah. 76 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,079 >>Chris: And so I'm thinking of people like that. 77 00:05:05,079 --> 00:05:07,879 But but I-- who have may--  78 00:05:07,879 --> 00:05:10,639 who may have impacted you like she did,  79 00:05:10,639 --> 00:05:13,800 but you just said something that made me go, 80 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,079 'Wow, well... 81 00:05:17,079 --> 00:05:19,120 Really, it's the kids...' 82 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,959 [Barbara laughs] 83 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:24,439 >>Matt: They were the teachers. >>Barbara: They were. 84 00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:26,319 >>Matt: You know, you mentioned that you learned from... 85 00:05:26,319 --> 00:05:28,879 your failures... 86 00:05:28,879 --> 00:05:31,519 and you also mentioned you had a long career. 87 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:35,079 And I know there's many lessons  88 00:05:35,079 --> 00:05:38,079 and many lessons hard-learned. 89 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:40,079 I'm wondering, what--  90 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:42,160 are there any specific that come to mind? 91 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,959 Maybe thinking back to when you were a new teacher  92 00:05:45,959 --> 00:05:50,959 and that experience of looking to your children was new? 93 00:05:50,959 --> 00:05:54,319 What lesson did you-- what big lesson to learn? 94 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:55,360 >>Barbara: The failures? 95 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,560 You're talking specifically about... [laughs] 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,639 >>Matt: Well, if that's where maybe  97 00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:02,199 a new understanding was born. >>Barbara: Yeah. 98 00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:04,079 >>Matt: You know, so it doesn't have to be a failure,  99 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:06,560 but a shift in thinking. 100 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,279 >>Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 101 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,120 Well, back to what Chris just asked me,  102 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,279 that time when I was a- 103 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,879 I think I was a second or third year teacher. 104 00:06:20,879 --> 00:06:25,040 I was teaching this little girl who was very oppositional  105 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,600 and she didn't want to do anything I wanted her to do  106 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,959 and she was-- she was fierce. 107 00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:35,120 [laughs] 108 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,600 And... 109 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,639 And that was when Chris Castro suggested that I sit down  110 00:06:41,639 --> 00:06:46,240 with her every day and just have a conversation. 111 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,759 Just talk with her about... 112 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:53,639 whatever she wanted to talk about. 113 00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:55,920 And... 114 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,959 My supervisor told me that I am so lucky  115 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:01,680 because most of the-- I mean, I was a pretty new  116 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,279 teacher and I just thought, 'I have to have lessons. 117 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,480 I have to like do stuff that is important.' 118 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,279 And she said, 'Well, just take 15-20 minutes every day  119 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:21,800 and just sit with this girl and see what she'd like  120 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:27,120 to talk about and do it right before lunch.' 121 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:28,800 That was what she told me. 122 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,959 And so I've taken that to heart because I think  123 00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:38,720 it's good to have a sort of natural close to a conversation. 124 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,759 So I did that and it was amazing! 125 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:47,120 It completely turned around my... 126 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,720 relationship with this little girl. 127 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,240 And she listened to me after that,  128 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,240 but I had to listen to her first. 129 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,720 So that was sort of the-- I think that was maybe  130 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,839 the beginning of my interest in conversation as a... 131 00:08:06,839 --> 00:08:11,560 real important... 132 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,000 what do I want to say-- an important... 133 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,319 center to my thinking  134 00:08:18,319 --> 00:08:21,519 about children who are Deafblind. 135 00:08:21,519 --> 00:08:23,959 And a center to my feeling because I think  136 00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:28,800 good conversation is something we all know  137 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,759 in our bones what that feels like. 138 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:34,399 So... 139 00:08:34,399 --> 00:08:39,879 Thank her for giving me the permission to have that. 140 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:40,840 >>Chris: Yeah, yeah. 141 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:46,879 It's interesting, I heard you also talk about... 142 00:08:46,879 --> 00:08:49,000 to the teachers that you were talking to over the last 143 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,840 couple days to give... 144 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,320 kind of that same idea back to them  145 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,440 of give yourself permission. 146 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,240 If it's five minutes a day just to be... 147 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,919 and just to be patient, though too. 148 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:05,919 To wait. 149 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:09,320 Because it may not happen immediately. 150 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,919 And we talked a little bit about how some of the kids  151 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:18,720 that you had worked with that were very low language  152 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,799 and didn't have a lot of motor movement and stuff,  153 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:27,519 how you had just sat with them very quietly  154 00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:29,840 and stilly and breathed with them. 155 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,240 >>Barbara: Mm hmm. 156 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,600 >>Chris: And what happened with that. 157 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,000 >>Barbara: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 158 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,840 Right. 159 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,519 And it doesn't even take five minutes to have  160 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:45,080 a few turns in life, you know, like... 161 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,639 moving from one place to another or whatever. 162 00:09:49,639 --> 00:09:52,840 Little conversations can happen  163 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:58,720 even in very small, very short spaces of time. 164 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,120 Yeah. 165 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:07,159 >>Matt: Why, why is it that you think Deafblind kids  166 00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:12,559 might be at risk or lack an opportunity to have  167 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,720 conversations the way their peers might? 168 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,519 And... 169 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:20,600 how does that impact your thinking or... 170 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,759 how might it impact our thinking 171 00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:25,279 as educators that work with these kids? 172 00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:29,519 >>Barbara: Well, a child who doesn't have vision or hearing  173 00:10:29,519 --> 00:10:31,799 or who has very little of it... 174 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,240 hasn't had the opportunity to... 175 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,039 see that other people have conversations  176 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:42,559 or overhear the conversations,  177 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:47,440 or maybe hasn't had partners that... 178 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,919 evoke... just this... 179 00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:55,240 sense of what it's like to have a back and forth interaction. 180 00:10:55,240 --> 00:11:00,360 Although, I mean, you have to think about it. 181 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:07,159 Just about every child has had some experience of... 182 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:09,639 comfort with another person. [laugh] 183 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:11,120 >>Matt: Hmm. >>Barbara: And that's what we're... 184 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,720 looking for- kind of a trust and a comfort. 185 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,759 >>Chris: Connection. >>Barbara: Yeah, a connection. 186 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:20,879 And if they haven't, there's the potential there. 187 00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:25,480 That's my belief and faith, ultimately. 188 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,080 That... Yeah. 189 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,279 So does that answer what you were thinking about? 190 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:32,279 >>Matt: Mm hmm. 191 00:11:32,279 --> 00:11:33,960 Or do you have anything to add? 192 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,519 >>Matt: Well, no, it just occurs to me that... 193 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:37,519 that we don't always think... 194 00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:40,879 that that's the heart of their program. 195 00:11:40,879 --> 00:11:43,200 >>Barbara: [laughing] Yeah. >>Matt: You know... 196 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,039 or that that's the heart of learning. 197 00:11:45,039 --> 00:11:46,159 >>Barbara: Yeah. 198 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,879 >>Matt: And it has dawned on me through listening to you  199 00:11:50,879 --> 00:11:52,879 and your experiences with those kids... 200 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:54,120 that I... 201 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,360 have had similar experiences. 202 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,879 That it's not until we get to that... 203 00:11:59,879 --> 00:12:02,000 position where we're willing to look to them 204 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,679 and to listen to them  205 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,480 and follow their lead 206 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,279 that they then follow our lead. 207 00:12:08,279 --> 00:12:14,159 And so that modeling of giving up that kind of control  208 00:12:14,159 --> 00:12:16,440 kind of changes the dynamic. 209 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,200 You know, you describe that one student as a little... 210 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:20,960 oppositional. 211 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:21,960 >>Barbara: Yeah, right. >>Matt: You know? 212 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,759 I think that all teachers have felt at times  213 00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:28,120 that they're in that mode with the kid,  214 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,639 'I want this and they want that.' 215 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:33,039 And so... 216 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:36,200 I think it's enlightening for people to hear 217 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,559 that when you're in that mode 218 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,480 that you don't need to exert more control. 219 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:41,440 [Barbara laughs] Right? 220 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,720 >>Barbara: Yeah. 221 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:43,559 Well, good luck! 222 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,799 [laughter and crosstalk] 223 00:12:45,799 --> 00:12:48,000 >>Matt: But giving up that control and... 224 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,679 and just... 225 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,480 looking to where their interests are, 226 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,720 what their topics are 227 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,000 and joining them. 228 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,960 That then it kind of turns it on its head. 229 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:56,480 >>Barbara: Yeah. 230 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:57,759 >>Matt: And then the teaching-- 231 00:12:57,759 --> 00:13:00,320 or then the learning begins, you know? 232 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,360 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: Does that makes sense? 233 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,799 >>Barbara: Absolutely. Absolutely. 234 00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:06,679 And you know the person better. 235 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:08,519 So you know... 236 00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:11,279 the way to... 237 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:15,840 spark their enthusiasm and joy and... 238 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,080 And that's... 239 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,600 I mean, we don't learn when we're tense. 240 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:21,639 [laughs] 241 00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:27,440 And I remember Dr. Van Dijk saying... 242 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,639 only when one is calm and alert  243 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:32,840 does learning really happen. 244 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,399 >>Chris: Yeah. 245 00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:35,840 Yeah. It's true for me. 246 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,480 [laughs] >>Matt: Yeah. 247 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,799 >>Chris: I don't know, I just think that's just really... 248 00:13:38,799 --> 00:13:41,200 cool stuff to think about. 249 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,200 You know, in... 250 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:45,360 I've been reading--  251 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,000 rereading some of your articles and your books and stuff  252 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,159 and somewhere... 253 00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:54,159 in some place... 254 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:57,240 you used the word 'teacher-ese,' you know? 255 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:58,559 [laughter] 256 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,840 I thought that was so great. 257 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,320 And... 258 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,000 I just think it's kind of what you both are saying  259 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,000 or I guess we're all saying, you know, you... 260 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,799 get caught in this thing where 261 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:11,159 it's my job as a teacher 262 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:14,200 to come in and impart information and... 263 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,039 instead of... 264 00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:23,960 relaxing, I guess, and having this conversation that... 265 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,440 that's the human thing. And it feels like... 266 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:27,399 you know... >>Barbara: Yeah. 267 00:14:27,399 --> 00:14:28,320 >>Chris: How can you be a teacher 268 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,120 without having the human thing, I guess? 269 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,440 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. 270 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:32,600 >>Chris: Does that make sense? 271 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,399 >>Barbara: Totally. [laughs] 272 00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:36,120 Yeah. 273 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,120 And when you said the word 'teacher-ese,' 274 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,559 I immediately thought of that... 275 00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:41,360 thing that... 276 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,600 teachers are taught to... 277 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,159 Well, I was like-- 278 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:46,840 Can't speak for all programs-- 279 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,080 but I was taught... 280 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,559 to give commands, you know? 281 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:52,399 >>Chris: Yeah, yeah. 282 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:57,279 >>Barbara: Good luck with a Deafblind child... 283 00:14:57,279 --> 00:15:00,279 Yeah, and that stops the conversation 284 00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:03,120 because it's just two turns. >>Chris: Yeah. 285 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,080 >>Barbara: Like... 'You do this.' [laughs] 286 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:05,919 >>Chris: Yeah. 287 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:08,559 And then that person not complying with what I just said. 288 00:15:08,559 --> 00:15:11,720 >>Barbara: [laughs] Exactly. 289 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,600 >>Matt: It... 290 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,480 Sometimes I wonder if people realize the connection  291 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,519 between that and then... 292 00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:21,799 bumps in the road that they experience with a kid. 293 00:15:21,799 --> 00:15:22,440 You know? >>Barbara: Yeah. 294 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,360 >>Matt: Some of our students are described as... 295 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,399 having behaviors, you know, or... 296 00:15:28,399 --> 00:15:30,759 being behavior issues or problems. 297 00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:31,559 >>Barbara: [laughs] Yeah. 298 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:35,600 >>Matt: And so is that something that you talk to people about? 299 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,519 that... 300 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:38,840 they're not having behaviors,  301 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,679 but maybe they're sick of being told what to do all day? 302 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:43,279 >>Barbara: [laughs] Yeah. Maybe. 303 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:44,320 [laughs] 304 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,519 And so for a... 305 00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:49,720 a teacher listening and thinking about this,  306 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,960 are there some kind of... 307 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,279 simple things that you think they can do 308 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:56,039 to shift their approach... 309 00:15:56,039 --> 00:15:58,000 and their thinking that would be helpful? 310 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,679 >>Barbara: Well, I think it's as much an attitude 311 00:16:00,679 --> 00:16:03,360 of shifting their own view... 312 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,440 of the child... 313 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,440 and themselves as a teacher. 314 00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:17,080 You know, we talked in the last couple of days,  315 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,080 I like the word 'respect' [laughs] 316 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,279 because it means, literally... 317 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:26,600 'to look again.' 318 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,639 So the willingness to look again,  319 00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:32,919 to see an aspect of a child that... 320 00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:35,320 one hasn't seen before. 321 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,919 And for me a really early... 322 00:16:39,919 --> 00:16:42,639 person that helped me... 323 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:45,320 I think I was talking with you about it--  324 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,840 was Anne Donnellan, who wrote an article about--  325 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,960 if my memory serves me right-- 326 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,679 behavior as communication. 327 00:16:53,679 --> 00:16:56,840 I mean, we all have behavior, right? 328 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,360 [laughs] >>Matt: If we're alive, right? 329 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,600 >>Barbara: If we're alive. [laughter] 330 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,399 [laughing] Behavior. Exactly. 331 00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:04,359 >>Chris: Maybe some of mine's good some of the time. 332 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,640 >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly! 333 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,759 Good and bad. 334 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:10,559 I mean, what is that really, you know? 335 00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:15,519 But communication... happens, you know... 336 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:18,920 all the time in subtle ways. 337 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,160 And... behavior is a form of communication-- 338 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,079 I mean, that's how I've always looked at it, so... 339 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:31,680 If a child is acting out, they're communicating something. 340 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,519 And... 341 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:36,279 and there are skillful and non-skillful ways  342 00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:41,000 of having a conversation in that situation. 343 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,119 >>Matt: Mm hmm. 344 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,720 >>Barbara: And one only learns so by... trying. 345 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,680 And by having that core value of... respect  346 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,079 and... equality in some way. 347 00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:56,519 I mean, like you and I are both human. 348 00:17:56,519 --> 00:18:00,519 But I'm older. [laughs] 349 00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:03,720 Now, as a teacher, you know, you have responsibilities, 350 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:04,599 >>Matt: Mm hmm. 351 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:06,440 >>Barbara: And you have to take care of them. 352 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,440 >>Matt: Yeah, you don't just sit there all day and... 353 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,119 >>Barbara: You don't just sit there all day. 354 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,160 >>Matt: Do whatever they want to do or... 355 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:13,400 just look at them. 356 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,079 >>Barbara: No, not at all. [laughter] 357 00:18:16,079 --> 00:18:17,240 Not at all. 358 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,640 Because, I mean, that's why Chris Castro was so wise  359 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,000 in saying, you know, have these conversations  360 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:30,000 that are on her topics like just for a while before lunch. 361 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,759 So, oh, guess what? It's lunchtime. 362 00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:33,759 [laughs] 363 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:37,200 We got to go to lunch or before some activities. 364 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,279 So that you've given yourself permission really 365 00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:45,839 to have a natural end to the conversation. 366 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:48,400 >>Matt: Mm hmm. >>Barbara: And... 367 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,240 Yeah, and... 368 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,799 >>Matt: What as you're saying that I'm thinking about,  369 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:55,480 you know, that turn-taking piece. 370 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,119 That giving a turn and taking a turn. 371 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,200 Is just essential to human interaction, right? 372 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,880 And so... 373 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,599 if we try to teach a kid... 374 00:19:06,599 --> 00:19:08,400 before they know how to... 375 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,319 give a turn... 376 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:11,960 and take a turn... >>Barbara: Mm hmm. 377 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,480 >>Matt: there's no-- You can't do it. 378 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:14,519 >>Barbara: Right. 379 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:16,279 >>Matt: So, yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah. 380 00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:17,559 And, you know, the language 381 00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:20,720 that's just now occuring to me is that... 382 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,119 I frame it the same way, but... 383 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,680 I think of it in terms of... 384 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,799 speaking and listening. 385 00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:29,039 >>Matt: Mmm. 386 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:30,400 And... 387 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,920 because that's their turns, you know? 388 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,079 So... 389 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:39,119 when someone else is speaking, I'm listening. When I'm... 390 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,640 When I'm speaking, I hope that they're listening, so... 391 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,720 But it's the same concept. I think. 392 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,359 >>Chris: I think that's great. I love-- I love that. 393 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:49,480 >>Barbara: Yeah. 394 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,960 >>Chris: I'm gonna start saying that. 395 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,000 [laughter] 396 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,480 >>Matt: It's less technical too. 397 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,359 >>Barbara: Which makes me think of... 398 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,799 the circle of courage and... 399 00:20:01,799 --> 00:20:05,720 the talking stick, the Native American... 400 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,960 talking stick, which does that. 401 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,720 You know, like, we're talking piece... 402 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,440 which... 403 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,880 allows the person who's speaking to... 404 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,519 sort of have the floor. [laughs] 405 00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:20,440 >>Matt: In a way that's really clear to everyone, right? 406 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:21,240 >>Barbara: In a way-- 407 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,839 >>Matt: On who's speaking and who's listening. 408 00:20:24,839 --> 00:20:27,599 And so that clarification seems like maybe for our kids  409 00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:30,720 is important because they don't get it as easily  410 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,440 with their vision or their hearing. 411 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:33,720 >>Barbara: Right. 412 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,759 >>Chris: I have to think that for some of our kids,  413 00:20:35,759 --> 00:20:39,599 they've not really known that they've had a voice  414 00:20:39,599 --> 00:20:42,880 until you start to listen, you know? 415 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,680 >>Barbara: Exactly. 416 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,799 I'm remembering now just the... 417 00:20:47,799 --> 00:20:51,200 fact that actually turn-taking is... 418 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,240 hard-wired in every person  419 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,160 because... it happens... 420 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,359 with a mother and baby... 421 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,000 when the mother is nursing. 422 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,640 Or, you know, in any way, breastfeeding  423 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,680 or giving a bottle... 424 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,440 there's this natural thing that happens is there's a... 425 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,400 I remember reading this and I was going, 426 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,240 'Oh yeah, that makes sense.' 427 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,960 Something called 'the burst-pause... 428 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,440 sucking reflex?'  429 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,279 Which is built into every infant. 430 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:28,920 And so the baby will be nursing and pause,  431 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,440 and the mother has to do something to encourage--  432 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,799 or naturally does something. 433 00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:38,039 I wouldn't say she's thinking about it at all,  434 00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:42,400 but you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 435 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,680 So now you're doing that and I'm... 436 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,799 Now I'm taking my turn, and then... 437 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:50,039 you suck, and then I'm taking--  438 00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:51,480 that kind of thing. You know. 439 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,960 >>Chris: It's built in. >>Barbara: It's built in. 440 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,319 And I remember when I read that I got much more confident  441 00:21:57,319 --> 00:22:03,559 about conversation as like the basis for... 442 00:22:03,559 --> 00:22:04,240 >>Chris: Yeah. 443 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,480 >>Matt: That makes a lot of sense. 444 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,839 >>Chris: Wow. >>Barbara: Yeah. 445 00:22:08,839 --> 00:22:11,680 >>Matt: I've read about that burst-pause, too. 446 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,400 And something that I thought was interesting 447 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,119 was that as a part of that process, 448 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,839 the nursing process, the feed... 449 00:22:16,839 --> 00:22:18,000 even the feeding process 450 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,640 when the baby is six months or eight months,  451 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,359 whenever it starts to eat solid foods--  452 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,319 that sometimes something that happens is that  453 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:28,720 in that dance of interaction of, you know,  454 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,920 are you ready for this bite and the baby opens  455 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,920 and then the mom goes in. 456 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,319 That then there is like shared smiling,  457 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:40,400 which is a big developmental milestone. 458 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,799 And so I wonder, do you think that that shared emotion  459 00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:46,559 that comes out of the listening and speaking 460 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:52,880 do you think that that plays a role in learning and...? 461 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:55,160 >>Barbara: Absolutely. 462 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,519 And you know what now I'm remembering is... 463 00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:02,960 Selma Fraiberg and reading her. 464 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:08,440 In the early days before there were video cameras or anything,  465 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:09,640 she, you know-- 466 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,640 she was a psychiatrist who worked with blind children. 467 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:13,640 >>Matt: Yeah. 468 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,759 >>Barbara: And... she... 469 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:19,359 took film of these blind children  470 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,279 and she noticed that a lot of the... 471 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:25,319 mothers of blind children were... 472 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:27,480 depressed. >>Chris: Disconnecting... 473 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,559 >>Barbara: Because there wasn't that exchange of smiles. 474 00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:37,599 And so she took film and she looked at the film  475 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:40,799 and she realized... 476 00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:43,720 -she had the hypothesis which turned out to be really true- 477 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,920 that... the blind babies were actually smiling 478 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,319 with their hands. 479 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:51,160 And they were like-- 480 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,440 when they were happy they were doing something like this. 481 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,200 >>Matt: Mm hmm. 482 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,640 >>Barbara: And so she... taught the mothers to... 483 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,680 pay attention to the hands of the children... 484 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,160 and know that they were smiling and... 485 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,599 and it evoked smiles in the mothers  486 00:24:13,599 --> 00:24:17,880 and was very helpful for them, so... 487 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,119 >>Chris: Yeah, because it's gotta go both ways. 488 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,119 >>Barbara: Has to go both ways. 489 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,599 Like the video that I showed yesterday  490 00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:30,599 of the woman who the-- Patricia and the caregiver  491 00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:32,240 >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: who was-- 492 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,519 when she noticed the baby's smile,  493 00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:37,000 she did like this, and when she was... 494 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,440 smelling... [laughs] 495 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,279 she allowed Patricia to touch her mouth. 496 00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:44,559 And so... 497 00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:45,880 >>Matt: To touch those emotions. 498 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,759 >>Barbara: To touch, right. Exactly. 499 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:51,359 >>Chris: Or acknowledge them and just that I see you smiling. 500 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,759 I thought that was so beautiful. 501 00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:53,680 >>Barbara: Exactly. Yeah. 502 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,640 >>Chris: You know, Matt-- 503 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,319 there's this thing that I... 504 00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:59,200 videotaped of Matt a long time ago,  505 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,759 and it's funny as a side note, you know, 506 00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:04,200 you've talked about how you've watched some of these videos 507 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,880 so many times, so... 508 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,519 Matt and I-- 509 00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:07,960 and it's probably torture for Matt  510 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,839 [laughter] because he's in the video but... 511 00:25:10,839 --> 00:25:13,079 we've watched it so many times, you know 512 00:25:13,079 --> 00:25:16,079 and it's the same thing. You see something new... 513 00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:17,000 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chsris: ...all the time. 514 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,359 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. 515 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,640 >>Chris: But Matt's working with our our friend Jarvis. 516 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,359 And I just think it's this most beautiful moment where... 517 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,720 there's some place that Jarvis hasn't been... 518 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,440 And they're exploring drums. 519 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,759 And there's a moment where... 520 00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:35,880 Matt taps on this drum... 521 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,160 and it startles Jarvis. 522 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,240 And Matt just goes... 523 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,920 'It's OK, you're scared.' 524 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,279 You know? And it's just like... 525 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:46,759 'Wow!' You know?  526 00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:48,319 I mean, that's exactly... 527 00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:51,880 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah,. >>Chris: What you should do. 528 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,119 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: And I just feel like... 529 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,640 >>Matt: What that makes me think... 530 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,119 of a... 531 00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,240 a story of shared emotion 532 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,160 with him that I think was a... 533 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,240 a moment where I learned... 534 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,279 a lesson from a student. >>Barbara: Mm hmm. 535 00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:07,039 >>Matt: And it... 536 00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:09,359 it was he was supposed to go home. 537 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,279 You know, he was at Texas School for the Blind 538 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:12,319 -a residential school- 539 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:14,720 so knowing when he goes home on the weekend 540 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,839 was like the most important information... 541 00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:17,440 >>Barbara: Yeah. 542 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,880 'When am I going to go see my mom again?' 543 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,640 And occasionally it wasn't a regular schedule. 544 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,359 You know, holidays would happen... 545 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,240 the pattern would be broken, so... 546 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,519 It was always a topic of discussion. 547 00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:32,319 And so there was one week where... 548 00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:34,759 we had told him all week he was going home. 549 00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:36,160 And then at the end of the week 550 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,160 I went to a training-- I was out on that Friday-- 551 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,359 and having told him he was going to go home 552 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,680 all week on Friday... 553 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,319 and then at the end of the day... 554 00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:47,400 he got to his dormitory... 555 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,839 and discovered that he wasn't going home. 556 00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:51,000 >>Barbara: Yeah. 557 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,559 >>Matt: And they... >>Barbara: Oh, boy. 558 00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:54,480 the dorm staff-- I know! >>Barbara: Oh, boy! 559 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,960 [sympathetic laugh] Boy. 560 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,519 >>Matt: Obviously this was distressing to Jarvis 561 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:03,440 and so his dorm staff was trying to help him  562 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,359 and talk to him about it 563 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,319 and explain what had happened and... 564 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:10,319 to varying degrees of success. 565 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:12,759 You know, they weren't sure the language  566 00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:14,559 that he would understand in that context,  567 00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:18,240 and they said, 'Well, call Matt and see if he has any ideas.' 568 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,920 And they called and I said, 'Well, I'm about to come back  569 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,920 to the school, so let me come in and say-- talk to him.' 570 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,759 And I remember approaching him thinking,  571 00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:32,319 'I have no idea what I can say to explain this.' 572 00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:34,079 And... 573 00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:37,799 But when he, you know, I said hello and who I was,  574 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:42,319 and he just grabbed me and hugged me and cried. 575 00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:45,160 And I just I didn't-- at that point wasn't thinking  576 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,960 about what I could do other than hug him. 577 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,000 And we-- I remember we kind of rocked together  578 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,119 for a little bit and I thought,  579 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,559 'Well, this is what I can do right  580 00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:57,880 to be with him and this feeling.' 581 00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,200 And then, you know... 582 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,480 I don't know how long that lasted 583 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,079 but a little while, but I remember then... 584 00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:05,200 ...signing, 'Sorry.' >>Barbara: Mm hmm. 585 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,960 >>Matt: While we were still in that embrace. 586 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,079 >>Barbara: Mm hmm. 587 00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:10,839 >>Matt: And... 588 00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,319 It just it felt nice, I remember it feeling nice,  589 00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:15,839 and Jarvis calmed down 590 00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:18,240 and without a lot of other discussion 591 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,680 he just kind of proceeded through his weekend 592 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,279 and all was... OK. 593 00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:25,279 But I did notice that after that 594 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:29,000 any time there was an unexpected break  595 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,680 or a mistake that someone had made 596 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,839 in not being able to explain it to him 597 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:36,200 that they could sign 'sorry.' 598 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,359 >>Barbara: Oh! 599 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,359 >>Matt: And that felt like the concept was... 600 00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:41,279 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: ...clear. 601 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:44,319 And therefore, he... 602 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:45,599 he had the piece of information  603 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:47,759 that he needed to forgive maybe. 604 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:53,440 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah, that's a great story. 605 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,400 >>Matt: He was a great teacher. Wasn't he, Chris? 606 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,559 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. >>Chris: Yeah. 607 00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:00,880 Big time. >>Barbara: Big time. 608 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:07,640 It's the word at the very same time that he's feeling it. 609 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:08,759 >>Matt: 'Oh, I heard you say that.' 610 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:11,559 >>Barbara: Yeah, that... 611 00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:16,279 Carol Crook had the... 612 00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:18,519 she was a teacher at Perkins... 613 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:20,920 and I admired her so much,  614 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,839 and she wrote in... 615 00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:25,240 'Remarkable Conversation' she said...  616 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,039 the time to sign or say a word... 617 00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:33,440 is the moment when you... feel... 618 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,720 she might have said 'think'  619 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,279 but I guess I might say 'feel'-- 620 00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:40,799 feel that the child has that word in their mind  621 00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:42,519 or in their heart. 622 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:47,759 I mean, he was feeling that at the moment that maybe,  623 00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:51,319 you know, so strongly and somehow it was--  624 00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:54,279 it's like a body memory of that time  625 00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:58,240 and then the safety and then the word  626 00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:59,839 all at the same time, you know. 627 00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:02,440 >>Matt: So it's like all those emotions  628 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,960 working with the kind of cognitive aspect, right? 629 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:07,680 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: Like, together? 630 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,160 >>Barbara: Yeah. 631 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,480 I mean, for me, also part of my... 632 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,039 journey in this field has been... 633 00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:19,640 I mean, it's just been amazing over many years. 634 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,200 And I have to say I'm not a full-time teacher. 635 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,599 I have never been- except for the early years- 636 00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:27,680 a full-time teacher. 637 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,160 But I've had the opportunity to meet... 638 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,319 many, many Deafblind... 639 00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:33,680 children... 640 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,640 and adults and... 641 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,880 teachers and... 642 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,720 one of the... 643 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,359 things that I've had to learn myself is that... 644 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:51,079 I have to be able to hold those feelings  645 00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:54,000 in myself in order to acknowledge them  646 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,079 in other... 647 00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:55,960 in others. 648 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,759 >>Chris: That also reminds me of a story that I've... 649 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:05,400 constantly reminded of... --that Jarvis story-- 650 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,559 of Ray... 651 00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:11,799 --a little guy that I used to work with... 652 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:14,279 I think he came to the school when he was like five 653 00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:17,400 you know, which is really, really young. 654 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,640 And it was an exceptional... 655 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,039 sort of thing that he came that early. 656 00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:29,119 But he was... really had a lot of trouble, he... 657 00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:32,279 didn't understand where he was at, and of course... 658 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:34,519 you know, was just disattached from his mom  659 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:38,799 and stuff like that at that age. 660 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:42,960 But we went on to be really tight, really good friends,  661 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,200 you know, and grew very close. 662 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,880 And this is a long story and I'll make it short. 663 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,519 But one of the things that we did, among other things, 664 00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:58,000 was when we would greet each other in the morning... 665 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,359 we would-- we would sign 'hug'--  666 00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:02,200 and he had some hearing, he didn't have vision,  667 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,519 but he had some hearing-- and I would say 'hug.' 668 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:07,920 And then he'd fall into me, you know, and I'd squeeze  669 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,440 and he like, it was kind of a rough houser or kind of guy. 670 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,839 And he would also-- he came to... 671 00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:20,200 that came to be a really nice thing to do with him  672 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,799 when he would get upset or scared or something,  673 00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:26,880 you know, is that hug thing and a tight squeeze. 674 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,559 And he left the school and I went to Outreach  675 00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:32,759 and I lost touch with him for... 676 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:35,319 I don't know, it must have been... 677 00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,400 close to 10 years I'm not really sure, 678 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,400 but something around there. 679 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,279 And we got a referral for him. 680 00:32:42,279 --> 00:32:44,720 And it's like, 'Oh my God, it's Ray! 681 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,119 I haven't seen him in forever. 682 00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:46,960 What happened to him?' 683 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,559 I lost touch with him and his mom. 684 00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:52,480 And so I went to the school where he was at  685 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,960 and he was in really bad shape. 686 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,400 He'd just been kind of sitting on this couch for--  687 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,400 nobody talking to him, really for a couple of years. 688 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,480 His head was all wrapped up in this bandage. 689 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,680 He looked like a mummy. 690 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,240 And... 691 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,319 he had-- the reason for that was because he was  692 00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:15,960 really self-abusive, he was banging his head a lot 693 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,119 and somebody would get close he'd try to... 694 00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:22,640 headbutt them and stuff, you know, it's just a really... 695 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,920 bad thing and... So... 696 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,240 You know, I remember it was-- it's such a vivid memory--  697 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,839 but I talked to the teacher for a little while,  698 00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:33,599 like 'what's going on?' 699 00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:38,440 And he kind of told me, like, 'we just don't know what to do.' 700 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,559 You know, we're kind--  701 00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:44,359 was implying that they were all so scared. 702 00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:47,039 And I remember going over to this couch  703 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:49,680 and being a little scared myself, you know,  704 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,039 it's like, 'what's going to happen? 705 00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:52,880 Is he going to remember me? 706 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,440 Is he going to try to knock me out,  707 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,759 you know, like or whatever?' 708 00:33:55,759 --> 00:34:00,559 And I unwrapped all this bandage around his head, you know,  709 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:02,880 and it was just like falling to the floor,  710 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,839 like it was just piles of it, it seemed like. 711 00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:09,559 And here's Ray standing in front of me 712 00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:11,840 and instead of being this tall he's, you know... 713 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,320 like close to six feet and... 714 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,960 he's, like, got facial hair and stuff, you know, and... 715 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,480 [laughter] 716 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,599 And so it's like, 'Wow, you know, and-' 717 00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:24,000 >>Barbara: Wow. 718 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,960 >>Chris: This crowd had gathered around us 719 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,320 like the call went out down the hall,  720 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,719 like 'the guy from Austin's here...' 721 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,880 [laughter] 722 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,400 like, 'what's going to happen? Let's go check it out.' 723 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,280 >>Barbara: Oh boy. 724 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,679 >>Chris: And so I'm standing there  725 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:40,039 and there's the circle around us, you know. 726 00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:42,199 And I didn't quite really realize that I was  727 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,039 really trying to focus on Ray, and I just had  728 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:48,880 his hands in mine and we were kind of doing some,  729 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,159 you know, little hand games or something, you know,  730 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:52,119 just to say hi. 731 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:55,760 And I remember, though, that I--  732 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,800 something made me go 'hug,' you know, 733 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,760 and giving this hug and... 734 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,519 kind of tentatively like, is he going to headbutt me  735 00:35:03,519 --> 00:35:05,199 if I do this, but... 736 00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:09,000 bring him close to me and... 737 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,280 And then the teacher, something, you know, it's--  738 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,880 some stuff happened and the teacher said something,  739 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,400 and I turned to look at her... 740 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,719 and this crowd sort of this-- 741 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,440 all I can say, is sort of this like gasp or something. 742 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,559 It's not quite the way it was, 743 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:25,679 but something... 744 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:27,880 I sensed something in the crowd. 745 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,280 And I look back and here after all these years,  746 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,920 Ray was signing 'hug' to me, you know. 747 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,000 Same kind of thing. It was like that. 748 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,679 To me, it was not only like, 'I remember you  749 00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:43,280 and I remember this thing that we did  750 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,840 and that it was a comfort to me.' 751 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,800 And it was-- but it was also like,  752 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,920 'Hey, everybody, I'm somebody.' 753 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:51,960 You know... >>Barbara: Mm hmm! 754 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,400 Like 'I'm somebody in the world. 755 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,239 All these people who... 756 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,320 haven't known that.' 757 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:58,599 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: You know? 758 00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:01,639 >>Barbara: 'I'm a person.' >>Chris: 'I'm a person and... 759 00:36:01,639 --> 00:36:02,440 >>Barbara: Human. 760 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,760 >>Chris: 'I remember this guy from 10 years ago. 761 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,360 I remember what we did and... 762 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,239 >>Barbara: Wow. 763 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:11,400 >>Chris: You know, there's just so much  764 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,679 in that simple gesture it seems. 765 00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:17,159 >>Barbara: Did you know at all beforehand  766 00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:19,880 that he had recognized you before you did that? 767 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,440 >>Chris: I still did not. >>Barbara: You still didn't. 768 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,159 >>Chris: That was my epiphany to myself. 769 00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:24,360 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 770 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,400 >>Chris: I was just like... >>Barbara: Yeah. 771 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,199 >>Chris: Wow. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. 772 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:32,880 >>Chris: I absolutely didn't. >>Barbara: Yeah. 773 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,920 Wow, so that was the moment when he did this. 774 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,679 >>Chris: Yeah.... Yeah... 775 00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:41,440 Yeah. 776 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:42,719 >>Barbara: Wow. 777 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,039 >>Matt: That just makes me think how rooted  778 00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:46,760 memory is in emotion. 779 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:47,880 >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah. 780 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,199 >>Chris: I think that's the point I was trying to make. 781 00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:53,440 >>Barbara: Which reminds me of Gunnar Vega's... 782 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,920 notion of bodily emotional traces. 783 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,679 And yeah, I think that confirms that in a way. 784 00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:03,920 That's probably the source of memory. 785 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,840 >>Chris: Yeah. 786 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,159 >>Barbara: And now I'm thinking that... 787 00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:12,000 in a way... 788 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,360 teachers are taught to look forward all the time. 789 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,800 I think I was as a teacher, you have a plan,  790 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,840 you have like goals, you have this... 791 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,599 sort of forward-looking thing. 792 00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:27,760 And... 793 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,239 That's fine... 794 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,559 But we also have to look backwards  795 00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:35,039 and remember things like... 796 00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,239 have memory for what has happened. 797 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,360 And I believe that the children... 798 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,280 and adults-- that everyone has memories,  799 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,760 sometimes they don't have words attached, but... 800 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:54,400 And that that kind of a view is a way  801 00:37:54,400 --> 00:38:00,880 of thinking about many things in Deafblind education. 802 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,800 Like, I can say this because I'm so old,  803 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,639 but I have all these memories of sort of little milestones  804 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:12,559 and children have memories of-- that are in their bodies. 805 00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:21,320 So the way we touch and the way we interact with them... 806 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,039 is so important. 807 00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:28,079 And memory is important, which is why I think  808 00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:32,599 there are such things as memory books  809 00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:34,159 in the field of Deafblindness,  810 00:38:34,159 --> 00:38:38,760 so there are concrete things to make the memories. 811 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,760 And I also-- one of the first signs that I like to teach--  812 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,119 Teach! [laughter] 813 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:48,480 --that I like to expose a child to a lot is... 814 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,000 'Remember.' 'Remember you and me? 815 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,360 Yesterday? 816 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,159 We did this,' you know? Like... 817 00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:59,440 So to come in every day with... 818 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,239 'How was yesterday?' And then 'How... 819 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:03,960 How might tomorrow be? 820 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,360 You know, if given that so... 821 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,199 Before the calendar, is the memory. 822 00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:10,480 [laugh] 823 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,519 You, know, like... >>Chris: Yeah. 824 00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:17,559 I'm so glad you said that because I... 825 00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,360 that was an epiphany for me. >>Barbara: Yeah, I could tell. 826 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,559 >>Chris: Yesterday when you talked about that. 827 00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:22,880 >>Barbara: Oh! 828 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,000 >>Chris: I was like, of course, you know,  829 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,400 Would you talk a little bit more about-- I mean-- 830 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,400 go further on that... 831 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,320 thought of 'You have to have the memory before you...' 832 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,599 >>Barbara: I guess it's just that... 833 00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:43,840 every life has its developmental arc and that you can't... 834 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,719 you can only live it forward, but... 835 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,000 you... [laughs] 836 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,320 everybody lives... 837 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,079 also with memories wherever they are, you know. 838 00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:57,760 And... 839 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,360 Just realizing that makes me... 840 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,079 respect the children's arc. 841 00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:05,360 So even... 842 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,199 Let's just say that even a child who... 843 00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:14,440 only lives for... a few years... 844 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:20,320 their life still has-- has an arc to it and so... 845 00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:31,679 Well, that's where-- that's where I'm going now but... 846 00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:34,920 Ask that question again because... 847 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,039 Could I say more about memory? 848 00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:38,559 >>Chris: It was-- It was... 849 00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:43,079 Just this idea that you can't really teach without... 850 00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:45,519 memories. You know, there's not... 851 00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:48,719 There's newness, but it has to be... 852 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:49,519 >>Barbara: Yeah. 853 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:53,159 >>Chris: Brought from this experience or this memory  854 00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:56,039 that it's built upon almost, you know? 855 00:40:56,039 --> 00:40:57,800 >>Barbara: Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. 856 00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,840 [laughs] Better than... >>Chris: No! 857 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:00,960 [crosstalk] >>Matt: I remember you... 858 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,360 making the comment that memory comes before anticipation? 859 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:05,079 >>Barbara: Yeah. 860 00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:07,360 >>Matt: Can you explain what you mean when you say  861 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,199 memory comes before anticipation. 862 00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:12,800 >>Barbara: Well, I guess they go together, but... 863 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,440 Now I'm relating it to... 864 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,440 what I heard... 865 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,679 Jan Van Dijk say one time that... 866 00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:25,360 calendars, for example, are... 867 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,719 meant to be... 868 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,519 for conversation. [laughs] 869 00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:31,840 They aren't just the schedule. 870 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,119 >>Matt: What?! [Laughter] 871 00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:34,519 >>Chris: Yeah, I mean, that's amazing! 872 00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:35,800 [laughter] Herasy! 873 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,599 [laughter] 874 00:41:38,599 --> 00:41:42,119 >>Barbara: So that's where my mind went with that. 875 00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:44,880 And so... 876 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,280 And they also have to do with relationship. 877 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,559 I mean, it matters who... 878 00:41:49,559 --> 00:41:53,280 who is... who is with... 879 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,960 [laughs] a person at a given time. 880 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,400 I mean, your story about Ray. 881 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,199 Like, there you were and you-- 882 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:02,679 he had that memory and... 883 00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:06,760 maybe then the anticipation and just the fact that... 884 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,480 that all those people saw that. 885 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,639 You know, maybe... then... 886 00:42:11,639 --> 00:42:13,440 'Oh, he has a memory.' 887 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,519 >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Guess what? 888 00:42:14,519 --> 00:42:16,480 >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: So maybe... 889 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,199 >>Chris: There's a person under those bandages. 890 00:42:18,199 --> 00:42:21,360 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Right. 891 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,400 >>Matt: Well, I know I've heard you talk 892 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:23,639 about how important it is 893 00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:24,679 and you mentioned... 894 00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:27,159 earlier about feeling safe. 895 00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:28,679 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: In order to learn... 896 00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:29,639 ...and calm. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. 897 00:42:29,639 --> 00:42:33,239 >>Matt: And so if we have those memories of connection...  898 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:33,800 >>Barbara: Yeah. 899 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,480 Matt: We can reflect and then... 900 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,039 out of that reflection  901 00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:41,639 comes our feeling of safety and security and trust. 902 00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,760 And then maybe we can start to be brave enough  903 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,639 to look forward and start to anticipate  904 00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:51,239 without it being overwhelming, without... 905 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,360 >>Barbara: Exactly! >>Matt: ...the unknown. 906 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,719 >>Chris: Sometimes you look forward and it's scary sometimes. 907 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,960 >>Barbara: It's scary. It's very scary. 908 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,199 It can be really. 909 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:02,840 >>Chris: It can be exciting and fun too,  910 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,719 but sometimes it's yeah. 911 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:05,599 >>Barbara: Yeah. 912 00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:08,360 >>Chris: Especially if you don't have a conception  913 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,320 of what might happen, you know? 914 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,199 >>Barbara: And that all sort of... 915 00:43:13,199 --> 00:43:15,559 converges in the present moment. 916 00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:16,960 [laughs] 917 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,639 You know, in the sense of just like being present. 918 00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:22,519 >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Being present for... 919 00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:25,119 the child or the adult... 920 00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:27,840 or, I mean, all being present with each other  921 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,559 in a way that... Yeah. 922 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,440 Yeah. So... 923 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,760 If-- and I'm struck by the fact that,  924 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,960 yes, safety and belonging and... 925 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,840 generosity-- all the forms of the circle of courage. 926 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,760 You know, looking at... >>Chris: Yeah. 927 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:54,360 >>Barbara: What are the values that guide us? I mean... 928 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,199 And.... 929 00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:59,039 Yeah. 930 00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:01,400 >>Matt: I was going to ask, can you can you talk briefly  931 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,199 about what the circle of courage is... 932 00:44:04,199 --> 00:44:06,840 and how you came to discover it... 933 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,039 and why you think it's helpful... 934 00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:13,280 for when thinking about how to support the learning  935 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,559 or the development of Deafblind kids? 936 00:44:16,559 --> 00:44:23,119 >>Barbara: Yeah, like I said in the training... 937 00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:27,559 I was originally introduced to it in Vermont by... 938 00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:29,119 by Larry Brendtro 939 00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:33,840 who came to do a workshop in Vermont about it and... 940 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:39,519 I mean, you happen to be interested in it, too. [laughs] 941 00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:42,840 So... that made me so happy. 942 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:49,039 And I was just so struck by the... 943 00:44:49,039 --> 00:44:51,599 --his whole presentation-- but by the wheel 944 00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:53,760 of the circle of courage and... 945 00:44:53,760 --> 00:45:00,719 how the elements of that make up a good life and... 946 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,679 and what, you know--  947 00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:06,000 and I'm forgetting what his terms are,  948 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:14,960 but I made an adaptation for Deafblindness. 949 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,719 He has four. And so help me... 950 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,400 >>Matt: I think 'mastery' is one. >>Barbara: 'Mastery.' 951 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,400 >>Matt: There's the-- I think he referred to  952 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:28,599 as the 'spirit of mastery' and the 'spirit of generosity' 953 00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:32,599 the 'spirit of independence' and... 954 00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:33,880 >>Chris: Courage. >>Barbara: 'Belonging.' 955 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,280 >>Matt: And 'belonging.' >>Chris: 'Belonging.' 956 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,280 >>Matt: Yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah. 957 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:37,559 'Belonging.' >>Matt: The 'spirit of belonging.' 958 00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:39,639 [crosstalk] 959 00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:43,920 >>Barbara: And I mean both of your stories speak to... 960 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,480 all those things. 961 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,239 And most maybe especially belonging,  962 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,679 which might be the safety. 963 00:45:50,679 --> 00:45:51,400 >>Chris: Yeah. 964 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,239 >>Barbara: Similar to the safety if we're not alone. 965 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:55,199 [laughs] 966 00:45:55,199 --> 00:45:56,280 >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: But... 967 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:01,719 maybe goes up, you know, goes with it. 968 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,199 And the one I added was 'understanding.' 969 00:46:05,199 --> 00:46:13,440 Meaning some sense of how the world around me works. 970 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,519 Which can't be taken for granted... 971 00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:19,239 by somebody who has... 972 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,119 impaired vision and hearing because... 973 00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:26,840 we develop our concepts-- we who can see and hear--  974 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,199 [laughs] less and less all the time, I might add--  975 00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:32,440 [laughter] 976 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,400 We who can see and hear can... 977 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,400 can learn about how the world works 978 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,519 just by watching and listening. 979 00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,639 And kids do. [laughs] 980 00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:48,599 So we need to be mindful of how... 981 00:46:48,599 --> 00:46:50,719 you know, how they... 982 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,920 what they see... [laughs] and hear. 983 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,159 [laughs] 984 00:46:54,159 --> 00:46:56,079 And that, I mean, I guess that piece-- 985 00:46:56,079 --> 00:46:57,920 I'm just coming to this right now-- 986 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,840 That piece is really pretty important. 987 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,760 We need to be mindful of what they see and hear. 988 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,840 And then with the child who's Deafblind  989 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,960 sometimes the only avenue-- if they're totally Deafblind-- 990 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,000 --is touch. >>Matt: Yeah. 991 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,679 >>Barbara: And here's where I... 992 00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:19,079 remember and remind people that Helen Keller had... 993 00:47:19,079 --> 00:47:23,599 two years before she went totally Deafblind and so... 994 00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:27,159 The amount that a child learns in two years is... 995 00:47:27,159 --> 00:47:29,039 I'm sure... you're aware of it. 996 00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:30,440 >>Matt: As a father, yeah. 997 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,679 >>Barbara: Yeah! [laughs] Totally, right? 998 00:47:32,679 --> 00:47:34,360 >>Matt: All he's learned that I didn't teach him. 999 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,320 >>Barbara: Yeah. 1000 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,559 >>Matt: And there was no-- no plan. 1001 00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:39,440 I didn't have... 1002 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,280 IEP goals set out... >>Barbara: No, right. 1003 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,440 >>Matt: But... 1004 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,360 >>Chris: Concept of Spider-Man... 1005 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:45,360 [laughter] 1006 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,159 >>Matt: It came to him incidentally, that's for sure. 1007 00:47:48,159 --> 00:47:49,920 >>Barbara: And pirates. [laugh] >>Matt: [indiscernible] 1008 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,480 Yeah, absolutely. 1009 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,960 So all that understanding... 1010 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,960 you know, some kids just get with vision and hearing. 1011 00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,119 >>Barbara: Right. >>Chris: Yeah. 1012 00:47:58,119 --> 00:48:00,000 >>Barbara: Right. >>Chris: It's a big, big world. 1013 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:00,960 Big, goofy world. 1014 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,679 >>Barbara: It's a big, goofy world. 1015 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:04,119 [laughs] 1016 00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:05,920 >>Chris: You, Barbara, talked about-- 1017 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,880 and you've been talking  1018 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,920 a lot this few days about 'a-ha moments.' 1019 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,920 And there was one story that you told that I just love,  1020 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,679 and... 1021 00:48:17,679 --> 00:48:19,519 I wonder if you would kinda tell it again 1022 00:48:19,519 --> 00:48:21,400 and it was... 1023 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,719 about when you really started thinking about... 1024 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,800 touch and you said that you had... 1025 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,199 stopped teaching for a while  1026 00:48:29,199 --> 00:48:32,000 and were really working as a potter  1027 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,199 and you came back... to teach again. 1028 00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:38,079 And I just wonder if you would talk about that. 1029 00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:41,719 >>Barbara: Yeah, I just talked about that... 1030 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,360 yesterday, I guess, and... 1031 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,519 It was interesting because I left teaching  1032 00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:52,519 to move back to Vermont because I love Vermont  1033 00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:56,440 and I'd been connected with it for many years  1034 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,119 and had already... 1035 00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:03,360 had some land there and wanted to be back where I... 1036 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,480 felt really comfortable. 1037 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,719 And I... 1038 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:12,440 I left and I had taken a lot of pottery lessons,  1039 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,559 which I totally enjoyed. 1040 00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:16,480 And gotten pretty good at it. 1041 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,119 And so when I got back 1042 00:49:18,119 --> 00:49:21,440 I decided to keep going with pottery 1043 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:26,679 and... I started making pots and selling them  1044 00:49:26,679 --> 00:49:29,920 and making a living that way. 1045 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,719 But mainly I spent hours and hours and hours throwing pots. 1046 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:40,159 And I realized that my hands got quite sensitive... 1047 00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:43,000 in that way-- I mean, I think I've always had sensitive hands-- 1048 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,679 but anyway... 1049 00:49:44,679 --> 00:49:48,639 And so then I went back to... 1050 00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:51,800 Boston to do something completely different, actually. 1051 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,400 [laughs] And then... 1052 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,360 Perkins offered me a job again. 1053 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,199 And so I went back to Perkins and I... 1054 00:49:58,199 --> 00:50:04,800 was teaching, at that time, teenagers and they had... 1055 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,320 become totally proficient at... 1056 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,400 following sign language with their hands. 1057 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,519 And so-- and the class that I taught was three... 1058 00:50:16,519 --> 00:50:21,480 teenagers who were all tactile signers. 1059 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,920 So I thought I was going to be a worse teacher 1060 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,079 because I hadn't been there for all those years-- 1061 00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:28,440 five years-- and I didn't really know... 1062 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:29,679 >>Chris: 'Could I ride the bike again?' 1063 00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:32,480 >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. 1064 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,159 And... 1065 00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:39,880 I actually felt like I knew I was better. 1066 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,960 And it was because of the sensitivity in my hands. 1067 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,840 So somehow that... 1068 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:54,079 coming together was what led to the eventual... 1069 00:50:54,079 --> 00:50:56,039 article that I wrote about... 1070 00:50:56,039 --> 00:50:59,079 talking the language of the hands to the hands. 1071 00:50:59,079 --> 00:51:04,360 >>Chris: That's an amazing sort of journey to that... 1072 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:05,400 I don't know what you call it--  1073 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:10,599 understanding like that deeper understanding of... 1074 00:51:10,599 --> 00:51:12,000 what all this means. 1075 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,000 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: That's just wow. 1076 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,119 >>Matt: I know you talked to us a little bit  1077 00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:19,599 about how that experience... 1078 00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:22,559 and that thinking about touch  1079 00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:28,199 and how it provided you extra insight... 1080 00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:31,039 led you to think differently about the touch  1081 00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:33,599 of your students and how they used touch  1082 00:51:33,599 --> 00:51:37,400 to learn and the various ways they use touch. 1083 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,480 Can you kinda describe that to us? 1084 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:44,079 >>Barbara: Hmmm. 1085 00:51:44,079 --> 00:51:45,679 >>Chris: [laughs] 1086 00:51:45,679 --> 00:51:48,000 You talk about me asking big questions, right? 1087 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,400 [laughter] [crosstalk] 1088 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,440 >>Matt: How about your life's work? 1089 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:56,199 [laughter] [crosstalk] 1090 00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:59,239 What I was getting at is... 1091 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,400 you told the story yesterday about... 1092 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,559 touch as a tool. 1093 00:52:04,559 --> 00:52:06,199 And how you felt like it was important  1094 00:52:06,199 --> 00:52:08,039 to get people to understand that... 1095 00:52:08,039 --> 00:52:11,599 they're using touch more than a tool. 1096 00:52:11,599 --> 00:52:13,360 >>Barbara: They're using their hands more than a tool. 1097 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:14,800 >>Matt: Their hands! I'm sorry. 1098 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,199 >>Barbara: I was talking about hands as a tool. 1099 00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:20,800 Because I was trying to explain how important  1100 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,639 touch was for blind people and for Deafblind people. 1101 00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:29,119 And I had developed such respect for the... 1102 00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:33,239 students' hands that I could no longer control them. 1103 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,960 And so I was trying to figure out 1104 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,920 how to explain to someone who... 1105 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,519 did the... 1106 00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:43,239 controlling of the hands, which... 1107 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,480 I was taught when I was in school 1108 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,679 you know, like this is how you get a blind child 1109 00:52:49,679 --> 00:52:50,920 to do something. 1110 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:56,079 You take their hand and you put it on the... 1111 00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,320 ...mug. [laughs] >>Chris: Yeah. 1112 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,400 Feel that mug. >>Barbara: Yeah, feel that mug. 1113 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,039 [laughter] [crosstalk] 1114 00:53:03,039 --> 00:53:05,679 >>Barbara: Pick that up. Pick that up. 1115 00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:09,000 And then all of a sudden I realized that, 'Oh, I get it.' 1116 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,159 I mean, when we have vision we... 1117 00:53:13,159 --> 00:53:15,840 use our hands mostly-- 1118 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,280 most people use their hands mostly--  1119 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,719 under the direction of their eye,  1120 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,880 so it's like a tool that... 1121 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,159 I mean, that's my... conceptualization of it, but... 1122 00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:29,360 many people are so unaware of their hands 1123 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,519 that it's just they're always under the guidance 1124 00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:33,079 of their... sight. 1125 00:53:33,079 --> 00:53:34,960 >>Matt: Sight first then... >>Barbara: Sight first... 1126 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,440 and then... so... but... 1127 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,079 That's not what they need to be used for 1128 00:53:42,079 --> 00:53:45,360 for a person who's blind or... 1129 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,400 Deafblind or... >>Matt: Mm hmm. 1130 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:48,599 >>Barbara: ...vision impaired. 1131 00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:49,719 You know, like... [laughs] 1132 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,360 They have to be... 1133 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:52,880 eyes too. 1134 00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,280 And they have to be... ears. 1135 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,679 They have to hear sound sometimes 1136 00:53:57,679 --> 00:54:01,000 with their hands and then they have to... 1137 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:02,519 speak with their hands. 1138 00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:05,039 Maybe sign language, you know. >>Chris: Yeah. 1139 00:54:05,039 --> 00:54:06,639 >>Matt: Emote. >>Barbara: Emote. 1140 00:54:06,639 --> 00:54:08,400 >>Matt: Like you were saying earlier, right? 1141 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:09,719 >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. 1142 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,920 Oh, that's a whole thing. Like feeling. 1143 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,679 >>Matt: Feeling. 1144 00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:14,400 >>Barbara: Yeah, feeling with your hands. 1145 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:15,360 Oh, that's-- >>Chris: Yeah. 1146 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,119 >>Barbara: That's one I didn't put on the list. 1147 00:54:17,119 --> 00:54:19,559 So that's up to you guys. >>Matt: OK! 1148 00:54:19,559 --> 00:54:20,760 [laughter] 1149 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,519 >>Chris: And that kind of goes to Gunnar 1150 00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:23,639 you know, I watch those videos how he's... 1151 00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:26,199 >>Barbara: Exactly! Exactly! 1152 00:54:26,199 --> 00:54:27,599 Right, right. 1153 00:54:27,599 --> 00:54:30,400 >>Chris: You see-- you can see it... 1154 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,960 when you're watching it. I can't really imagine what it... 1155 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,360 feels like, though. >>Barbara: Yeah. 1156 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,559 >>Chris: You know, I mean, that must be so... 1157 00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:38,000 ...powerful. 1158 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,280 >>Barbara: Yeah. 1159 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,079 And then he has this gesture that he taught me about. 1160 00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:43,599 When you're-- 1161 00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:45,519 talk about speaking and listening--  1162 00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:47,800 when you're doing tactile sign 1163 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,840 like if you're signing with someone 1164 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:51,679 you know, and you're signing and then... 1165 00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:53,599 I'm done with my turn so... 1166 00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:55,519 Has he showed you that? >>Matt: I've seen him do it. 1167 00:54:55,519 --> 00:54:57,800 >>Barbara: And so... this is like... 1168 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,360 a communication that's so delicate and it's like... 1169 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:02,679 Now it's your turn. 1170 00:55:02,679 --> 00:55:05,559 And I'm listening. And then... 1171 00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:08,000 So this is like-- Yeah, yeah. 1172 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:09,920 >>Matt: Now I'm listening. >>Barbara: Relax your hands. 1173 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,760 >>Barbara: Yeah, that's different. 1174 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:18,000 [laughter] [crosstalk] 1175 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,639 >>Barbara: Yeah. So, yeah. 1176 00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:26,239 I remember there was somebody in the training yesterday  1177 00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,599 who is a massage therapist, and... 1178 00:55:28,599 --> 00:55:29,480 >>Matt: Yeah. 1179 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,039 >>Barbara: I'm pretty sure he probably has a good sensitivity 1180 00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:34,880 with children because... 1181 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,760 he's had that sort of practice. 1182 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:39,039 >>Chris: He does. We've seen it. 1183 00:55:39,039 --> 00:55:40,199 >>Barbara: Yeah. 1184 00:55:40,199 --> 00:55:42,639 >>Chris: He's pretty awesome. >>Barbara: Yeah. 1185 00:55:42,639 --> 00:55:44,599 >>Matt: We started our discussion-- 1186 00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:46,360 You started our discussion... 1187 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:47,559 >>Barbara: Yeah. 1188 00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:50,239 >>Matt: ...about the value of stories... 1189 00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:51,840 >>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: That you learned from... 1190 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,760 from your students. 1191 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,480 Are there any... 1192 00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,320 are there any other ones that come to mind 1193 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,159 or that you want to share with us... 1194 00:56:01,159 --> 00:56:03,119 that you think are important lessons 1195 00:56:03,119 --> 00:56:06,920 for other people to know... to hear about or to think about? 1196 00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:11,199 >>Barbara: One of my goals in coming here was to... 1197 00:56:11,199 --> 00:56:13,360 empower... 1198 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,400 people here to... 1199 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,480 keep gathering stories. 1200 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,199 And so... 1201 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,360 I could keep telling stories all day. 1202 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,320 [laughs] 1203 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:28,199 But... 1204 00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:30,519 Just to have that... 1205 00:56:30,519 --> 00:56:33,880 confidence that we all have stories  1206 00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:38,239 and that every teacher has stories. 1207 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,320 And... 1208 00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:47,440 Yeah, I'll tell that story about a time when... 1209 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,199 when I was... 1210 00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,800 asked to consult about a young woman who... 1211 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,719 was blind and... 1212 00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,079 she actually had some hearing, but... 1213 00:56:59,079 --> 00:57:02,800 they were worried at the school that her hearing was... 1214 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,480 declining because she had stopped speaking. 1215 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,119 And so... 1216 00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:09,480 When I went to the school... 1217 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,760 I asked to observe her all day. 1218 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,000 And I did. And... 1219 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:19,400 it was true, she barely said a word the whole entire day. 1220 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,079 And... 1221 00:57:22,079 --> 00:57:25,199 I wouldn't say she was particularly oppositional,  1222 00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:27,760 she just was mute. 1223 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,079 And... And she was blind. 1224 00:57:31,079 --> 00:57:35,960 And at the end of the day, we had a meeting and the staff... 1225 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:37,920 were sitting around a big table  1226 00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:42,800 and there was a young woman I hadn't met there. 1227 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,039 And... 1228 00:57:44,039 --> 00:57:46,199 I just asked to go around the table  1229 00:57:46,199 --> 00:57:48,320 and hear from everybody... 1230 00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,000 what their observation of the student had been. 1231 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,960 And they all went around and they all said, 1232 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,559 'She's mute. She's mute. 1233 00:57:55,559 --> 00:57:58,639 She isn't speaking. She isn't speaking.' 1234 00:57:58,639 --> 00:58:01,239 And... 1235 00:58:01,239 --> 00:58:04,039 And then I got to the last person whom I hadn't met,  1236 00:58:04,039 --> 00:58:09,159 and it was a young woman that was about the age of... 1237 00:58:09,159 --> 00:58:11,320 the student, the girl. 1238 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,480 And I said, 'So are you... 1239 00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,719 --What is your experience? Is she... 1240 00:58:16,719 --> 00:58:18,719 Does she talk with you?' And... 1241 00:58:18,719 --> 00:58:21,960 She said, 'Yeah, she talks all the time.' 1242 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,440 And I said, 'Oh, what... What does she talk about?' 1243 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,760 And... 1244 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,679 And she said, 'Oh, she talks about... 1245 00:58:28,679 --> 00:58:31,199 makeup and she talks about... 1246 00:58:31,199 --> 00:58:34,239 boys and she talks about music 1247 00:58:34,239 --> 00:58:36,599 and she talks about clothes.' 1248 00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:38,119 And I said, 'Oh! 1249 00:58:38,119 --> 00:58:40,159 And what do you talk to her about?' 1250 00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:43,159 'Oh, I tell her about my boyfriend  1251 00:58:43,159 --> 00:58:46,000 and I tell her about the music I'm listening to 1252 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,239 and I tell her about... 1253 00:58:49,239 --> 00:58:53,719 all kinds of things that are going on in my life.' 1254 00:58:53,719 --> 00:58:56,639 And I could just see all the other people were like, 1255 00:58:56,639 --> 00:58:59,760 'Oh... OK.' [laughter] 1256 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,679 [laughs] 1257 00:59:01,679 --> 00:59:03,079 And... 1258 00:59:03,079 --> 00:59:05,199 'Oh she's not losing her hearing. 1259 00:59:05,199 --> 00:59:09,239 She just hasn't found mutual topics yet.' 1260 00:59:09,239 --> 00:59:09,760 [laughs] >>Matt: Mm hmm. 1261 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,079 >>Chris: Yep! 1262 00:59:11,079 --> 00:59:15,079 >>Barbara: I should say that joint topic, joint attention. 1263 00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:18,480 So that's-- that experience really informed me  1264 00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:20,719 because I thought, 'Well, if you're talking about things  1265 00:59:20,719 --> 00:59:24,639 that the kid is not interested in at all,  1266 00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:25,840 you can talk all you want.' 1267 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,000 [laughs] >>Chris: Yeah. 1268 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,400 >>Chris: And it's pretty much how I am too. 1269 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:30,719 I mean, just saying, you know. 1270 00:59:30,719 --> 00:59:32,719 [laughter] 1271 00:59:32,719 --> 00:59:34,519 >>Matt: Well, everyone to a certain degree, right? 1272 00:59:34,519 --> 00:59:35,920 >>Chris: And that's what-- that's what I mean. 1273 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:36,719 >>Barbara: Exactly. 1274 00:59:36,719 --> 00:59:39,679 So that's why we have more than one friendship, you know. 1275 00:59:39,679 --> 00:59:45,760 And it's because they address different aspects of ourselves. 1276 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,199 So... 1277 00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:51,719 Anyway, I don't know if that answers your... 1278 00:59:51,719 --> 00:59:53,400 >>Chris: That's a really great story. 1279 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:53,880 >>Barbara: OK. 1280 00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,159 Yeah, I just like I can't forget it. 1281 00:59:57,159 --> 00:59:59,039 Obviously. 1282 00:59:59,039 --> 01:00:00,360 >>Chris: Yeah. 1283 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,639 It's a good human life lesson kind of thing. 1284 01:00:03,639 --> 01:00:06,119 >>Barbara: And it reminds me, too, of the... 1285 01:00:06,119 --> 01:00:07,880 thing that I said several times 1286 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,880 in the last couple of days that... 1287 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,400 it grows, this feeling, but that... 1288 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,320 we have to trust... the... 1289 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,239 students as much as get them to trust us. 1290 01:00:20,239 --> 01:00:25,760 And those happen... you know, jointly... 1291 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:26,960 So... 1292 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:28,800 Just trusting, you know... 1293 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,000 the intelligence of... 1294 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,480 whoever I'm with, you know? 1295 01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,440 Everyone has their own form-- 1296 01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,280 everyone, everyone, everyone-- 1297 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,320 has their own form of intelligence including... 1298 01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,480 the most... 1299 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,239 The child that we might think is the least intelligent  1300 01:00:49,239 --> 01:00:52,440 has their own form of intelligence, you know? 1301 01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:53,760 And... 1302 01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,639 It's up to us to maybe... 1303 01:00:56,639 --> 01:00:59,159 recognize it and trust that. >>Matt: Yeah, yeah. 1304 01:00:59,159 --> 01:01:00,920 >>Chris: Because it could be profound. 1305 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,800 You just don't know. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly. 1306 01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,280 Probably is profound. >>Chris: Yeah. 1307 01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:07,800 >>Barbara: You know? >>Chris: Yeah. 1308 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:09,519 >>Barbara: And... >>Chris: That's what I believe. 1309 01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:11,679 >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. 1310 01:01:11,679 --> 01:01:14,440 >>Matt: And your stories make me... 1311 01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,920 realize and believe, too, that... 1312 01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,960 that they have that intelligence there and it's... 1313 01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,360 there waiting for-- to share it. 1314 01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,320 That's innate. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. 1315 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:24,679 >>Matt: That there's never been a child 1316 01:01:24,679 --> 01:01:25,840 that didn't want to share. 1317 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,119 >>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Right. 1318 01:01:27,119 --> 01:01:28,039 >>Matt: And so... 1319 01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:30,199 that's what I think about when you say-- when we... 1320 01:01:30,199 --> 01:01:32,760 when we look to them, when we respect them. 1321 01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,280 >>Barbara: Respect. Yeah. >>Matt: We look again. 1322 01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:36,039 >>Matt: We're looking again... 1323 01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:37,960 and listening. Yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah. 1324 01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:39,440 >>Matt: We're listening for... 1325 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,280 that essence of who they are... 1326 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:42,599 that interest... >>Barbara: Yeah. 1327 01:01:42,599 --> 01:01:45,079 and that it all kind of can... 1328 01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:48,039 grow from there. >>Barbara: Yeah... yeah. 1329 01:01:48,039 --> 01:01:50,199 >>Matt: It's a good lesson, huh? To learn. 1330 01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:51,159 [Chris laughs] >>Barbara: A really good less-- 1331 01:01:51,159 --> 01:01:54,880 It's a life-- it's a lifetime lesson, believe me. 1332 01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,039 [laughs] 1333 01:01:57,039 --> 01:01:58,840 Yeah. [laugh]