>>Chris: Hi... We're going to introduce ourselves
and I will start by saying that I'm Chris Montgomery
and I work for the Texas School for the Blind
and Visually Impaired in Austin.
And I am part of the Outreach Department
and the Deafblind education team.
>>Matt: My name is Matt Schultz
and I too am a member of the Texas School
for the Blind Deafblind outreach team.
And like Chris, I'm an ed consultant.
That means I work in school districts across the state
with children, their teachers, and their families.
>>Barbara: Hi, I'm Barbara Miles.
I live in Vermont, which is far away from here,
and I've just been in Texas for nearly a week now
and had a wonderful time, an amazing time
talking with both Chris and Matt and also...
doing some trainings with teachers
and...
people who work with children who are Deafblind.
And I'm just about retired.
And I am old. [laughs]
And it is one of the most wonderful things in my life
that I've spent all this time in this field.
So I'm just really grateful for the chance
to be here and to tell stories about my experiences
with children and parents over many, many years now.
>>Chris: Well, Barbara, before we were having
these cameras roll, we talked a little bit.
And one of the things that you've been telling Matt and I
is that you really wanted to pass the torch, so to speak.
The metaphor of 'all right, I'm going to come down here
one more time, you guys' because we're so persuasive.
We saw you in the parking lot
in Massachusetts and talked to you
into coming down, but-- at the DBI conference--
but you've said that you want to really kind of step away--
last time you're coming to Texas to do this.
[Barbara laughs]
And so I just wonder the kind of--
the question that I ask you when the cameras weren't rolling.
Your ideas on passing the torch and what that means to you
and then also for you and your career, if there are any--
has there been anybody that's passed the torch
to you and what did that mean?
>>Barbara: Wow, those are big questions.
>>Chris: They are big questions. [Barbara laughs]
>>Barbara: So...
>>Barbara: As far as...
I mean, my time here,
this time has taught me that I never did anything alone.
I did it with students. I did it with families.
I did it with mentors in the field
and who included a number of people that I think
are on your Texas website [laughs]
because you all have brought
so many wise people in the field here,
and I'm indebted to every one of them.
And I'm also indebted to every child,
just about every child I've ever interacted with
who's Deafblind or not.
And I...
My aspiration is to learn from every one of them.
And when that's been the case, I've learned so much.
And I can learn, I can learn from failures
as well as successes, so...
Yeah. So does that...
>>Chris: It makes me think the way I framed that question,
I was really in my mind thinking about, you know,
whether it would be a teacher that you had.
You've mentioned-- I can't remember her name--
but your director who had given you some ideas to sit
for a period of time and just be with the student before lunch.
>>Barbara: That was Chris Castro at Perkins many years ago.
Yeah.
>>Chris: And so I'm thinking of people like that.
But but I-- who have may--
who may have impacted you like she did,
but you just said something that made me go,
'Wow, well...
Really, it's the kids...'
[Barbara laughs]
>>Matt: They were the teachers. >>Barbara: They were.
>>Matt: You know, you mentioned that you learned from...
your failures...
and you also mentioned you had a long career.
And I know there's many lessons
and many lessons hard-learned.
I'm wondering, what--
are there any specific that come to mind?
Maybe thinking back to when you were a new teacher
and that experience of looking to your children was new?
What lesson did you-- what big lesson to learn?
>>Barbara: The failures?
You're talking specifically about... [laughs]
>>Matt: Well, if that's where maybe
a new understanding was born. >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: You know, so it doesn't have to be a failure,
but a shift in thinking.
>>Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Well, back to what Chris just asked me,
that time when I was a-
I think I was a second or third year teacher.
I was teaching this little girl who was very oppositional
and she didn't want to do anything I wanted her to do
and she was-- she was fierce.
[laughs]
And...
And that was when Chris Castro suggested that I sit down
with her every day and just have a conversation.
Just talk with her about...
whatever she wanted to talk about.
And...
My supervisor told me that I am so lucky
because most of the-- I mean, I was a pretty new
teacher and I just thought, 'I have to have lessons.
I have to like do stuff that is important.'
And she said, 'Well, just take 15-20 minutes every day
and just sit with this girl and see what she'd like
to talk about and do it right before lunch.'
That was what she told me.
And so I've taken that to heart because I think
it's good to have a sort of natural close to a conversation.
So I did that and it was amazing!
It completely turned around my...
relationship with this little girl.
And she listened to me after that,
but I had to listen to her first.
So that was sort of the-- I think that was maybe
the beginning of my interest in conversation as a...
real important...
what do I want to say-- an important...
center to my thinking
about children who are Deafblind.
And a center to my feeling because I think
good conversation is something we all know
in our bones what that feels like.
So...
Thank her for giving me the permission to have that.
>>Chris: Yeah, yeah.
It's interesting, I heard you also talk about...
to the teachers that you were talking to over the last
couple days to give...
kind of that same idea back to them
of give yourself permission.
If it's five minutes a day just to be...
and just to be patient, though too.
To wait.
Because it may not happen immediately.
And we talked a little bit about how some of the kids
that you had worked with that were very low language
and didn't have a lot of motor movement and stuff,
how you had just sat with them very quietly
and stilly and breathed with them.
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
>>Chris: And what happened with that.
>>Barbara: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Right.
And it doesn't even take five minutes to have
a few turns in life, you know, like...
moving from one place to another or whatever.
Little conversations can happen
even in very small, very short spaces of time.
Yeah.
>>Matt: Why, why is it that you think Deafblind kids
might be at risk or lack an opportunity to have
conversations the way their peers might?
And...
how does that impact your thinking or...
how might it impact our thinking
as educators that work with these kids?
>>Barbara: Well, a child who doesn't have vision or hearing
or who has very little of it...
hasn't had the opportunity to...
see that other people have conversations
or overhear the conversations,
or maybe hasn't had partners that...
evoke... just this...
sense of what it's like to have a back and forth interaction.
Although, I mean, you have to think about it.
Just about every child has had some experience of...
comfort with another person. [laugh]
>>Matt: Hmm. >>Barbara: And that's what we're...
looking for- kind of a trust and a comfort.
>>Chris: Connection. >>Barbara: Yeah, a connection.
And if they haven't, there's the potential there.
That's my belief and faith, ultimately.
That... Yeah.
So does that answer what you were thinking about?
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
Or do you have anything to add?
>>Matt: Well, no, it just occurs to me that...
that we don't always think...
that that's the heart of their program.
>>Barbara: [laughing] Yeah. >>Matt: You know...
or that that's the heart of learning.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: And it has dawned on me through listening to you
and your experiences with those kids...
that I...
have had similar experiences.
That it's not until we get to that...
position where we're willing to look to them
and to listen to them
and follow their lead
that they then follow our lead.
And so that modeling of giving up that kind of control
kind of changes the dynamic.
You know, you describe that one student as a little...
oppositional.
>>Barbara: Yeah, right. >>Matt: You know?
I think that all teachers have felt at times
that they're in that mode with the kid,
'I want this and they want that.'
And so...
I think it's enlightening for people to hear
that when you're in that mode
that you don't need to exert more control.
[Barbara laughs] Right?
>>Barbara: Yeah.
Well, good luck!
[laughter and crosstalk]
>>Matt: But giving up that control and...
and just...
looking to where their interests are,
what their topics are
and joining them.
That then it kind of turns it on its head.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: And then the teaching--
or then the learning begins, you know?
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: Does that makes sense?
>>Barbara: Absolutely. Absolutely.
And you know the person better.
So you know...
the way to...
spark their enthusiasm and joy and...
And that's...
I mean, we don't learn when we're tense.
[laughs]
And I remember Dr. Van Dijk saying...
only when one is calm and alert
does learning really happen.
>>Chris: Yeah.
Yeah. It's true for me.
[laughs] >>Matt: Yeah.
>>Chris: I don't know, I just think that's just really...
cool stuff to think about.
You know, in...
I've been reading--
rereading some of your articles and your books and stuff
and somewhere...
in some place...
you used the word 'teacher-ese,' you know?
[laughter]
I thought that was so great.
And...
I just think it's kind of what you both are saying
or I guess we're all saying, you know, you...
get caught in this thing where
it's my job as a teacher
to come in and impart information and...
instead of...
relaxing, I guess, and having this conversation that...
that's the human thing. And it feels like...
you know... >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: How can you be a teacher
without having the human thing, I guess?
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
>>Chris: Does that make sense?
>>Barbara: Totally. [laughs]
Yeah.
And when you said the word 'teacher-ese,'
I immediately thought of that...
thing that...
teachers are taught to...
Well, I was like--
Can't speak for all programs--
but I was taught...
to give commands, you know?
>>Chris: Yeah, yeah.
>>Barbara: Good luck with a Deafblind child...
Yeah, and that stops the conversation
because it's just two turns. >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Like... 'You do this.' [laughs]
>>Chris: Yeah.
And then that person not complying with what I just said.
>>Barbara: [laughs] Exactly.
>>Matt: It...
Sometimes I wonder if people realize the connection
between that and then...
bumps in the road that they experience with a kid.
You know? >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: Some of our students are described as...
having behaviors, you know, or...
being behavior issues or problems.
>>Barbara: [laughs] Yeah.
>>Matt: And so is that something that you talk to people about?
that...
they're not having behaviors,
but maybe they're sick of being told what to do all day?
>>Barbara: [laughs] Yeah. Maybe.
[laughs]
And so for a...
a teacher listening and thinking about this,
are there some kind of...
simple things that you think they can do
to shift their approach...
and their thinking that would be helpful?
>>Barbara: Well, I think it's as much an attitude
of shifting their own view...
of the child...
and themselves as a teacher.
You know, we talked in the last couple of days,
I like the word 'respect' [laughs]
because it means, literally...
'to look again.'
So the willingness to look again,
to see an aspect of a child that...
one hasn't seen before.
And for me a really early...
person that helped me...
I think I was talking with you about it--
was Anne Donnellan, who wrote an article about--
if my memory serves me right--
behavior as communication.
I mean, we all have behavior, right?
[laughs] >>Matt: If we're alive, right?
>>Barbara: If we're alive. [laughter]
[laughing] Behavior. Exactly.
>>Chris: Maybe some of mine's good some of the time.
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly!
Good and bad.
I mean, what is that really, you know?
But communication... happens, you know...
all the time in subtle ways.
And... behavior is a form of communication--
I mean, that's how I've always looked at it, so...
If a child is acting out, they're communicating something.
And...
and there are skillful and non-skillful ways
of having a conversation in that situation.
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
>>Barbara: And one only learns so by... trying.
And by having that core value of... respect
and... equality in some way.
I mean, like you and I are both human.
But I'm older. [laughs]
Now, as a teacher, you know, you have responsibilities,
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
>>Barbara: And you have to take care of them.
>>Matt: Yeah, you don't just sit there all day and...
>>Barbara: You don't just sit there all day.
>>Matt: Do whatever they want to do or...
just look at them.
>>Barbara: No, not at all. [laughter]
Not at all.
Because, I mean, that's why Chris Castro was so wise
in saying, you know, have these conversations
that are on her topics like just for a while before lunch.
So, oh, guess what? It's lunchtime.
[laughs]
We got to go to lunch or before some activities.
So that you've given yourself permission really
to have a natural end to the conversation.
>>Matt: Mm hmm. >>Barbara: And...
Yeah, and...
>>Matt: What as you're saying that I'm thinking about,
you know, that turn-taking piece.
That giving a turn and taking a turn.
Is just essential to human interaction, right?
And so...
if we try to teach a kid...
before they know how to...
give a turn...
and take a turn... >>Barbara: Mm hmm.
>>Matt: there's no-- You can't do it.
>>Barbara: Right.
>>Matt: So, yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah.
And, you know, the language
that's just now occuring to me is that...
I frame it the same way, but...
I think of it in terms of...
speaking and listening.
>>Matt: Mmm.
And...
because that's their turns, you know?
So...
when someone else is speaking, I'm listening. When I'm...
When I'm speaking, I hope that they're listening, so...
But it's the same concept. I think.
>>Chris: I think that's great. I love-- I love that.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: I'm gonna start saying that.
[laughter]
>>Matt: It's less technical too.
>>Barbara: Which makes me think of...
the circle of courage and...
the talking stick, the Native American...
talking stick, which does that.
You know, like, we're talking piece...
which...
allows the person who's speaking to...
sort of have the floor. [laughs]
>>Matt: In a way that's really clear to everyone, right?
>>Barbara: In a way--
>>Matt: On who's speaking and who's listening.
And so that clarification seems like maybe for our kids
is important because they don't get it as easily
with their vision or their hearing.
>>Barbara: Right.
>>Chris: I have to think that for some of our kids,
they've not really known that they've had a voice
until you start to listen, you know?
>>Barbara: Exactly.
I'm remembering now just the...
fact that actually turn-taking is...
hard-wired in every person
because... it happens...
with a mother and baby...
when the mother is nursing.
Or, you know, in any way, breastfeeding
or giving a bottle...
there's this natural thing that happens is there's a...
I remember reading this and I was going,
'Oh yeah, that makes sense.'
Something called 'the burst-pause...
sucking reflex?'
Which is built into every infant.
And so the baby will be nursing and pause,
and the mother has to do something to encourage--
or naturally does something.
I wouldn't say she's thinking about it at all,
but you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So now you're doing that and I'm...
Now I'm taking my turn, and then...
you suck, and then I'm taking--
that kind of thing. You know.
>>Chris: It's built in. >>Barbara: It's built in.
And I remember when I read that I got much more confident
about conversation as like the basis for...
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Matt: That makes a lot of sense.
>>Chris: Wow. >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: I've read about that burst-pause, too.
And something that I thought was interesting
was that as a part of that process,
the nursing process, the feed...
even the feeding process
when the baby is six months or eight months,
whenever it starts to eat solid foods--
that sometimes something that happens is that
in that dance of interaction of, you know,
are you ready for this bite and the baby opens
and then the mom goes in.
That then there is like shared smiling,
which is a big developmental milestone.
And so I wonder, do you think that that shared emotion
that comes out of the listening and speaking
do you think that that plays a role in learning and...?
>>Barbara: Absolutely.
And you know what now I'm remembering is...
Selma Fraiberg and reading her.
In the early days before there were video cameras or anything,
she, you know--
she was a psychiatrist who worked with blind children.
>>Matt: Yeah.
>>Barbara: And... she...
took film of these blind children
and she noticed that a lot of the...
mothers of blind children were...
depressed. >>Chris: Disconnecting...
>>Barbara: Because there wasn't that exchange of smiles.
And so she took film and she looked at the film
and she realized...
-she had the hypothesis which turned out to be really true-
that... the blind babies were actually smiling
with their hands.
And they were like--
when they were happy they were doing something like this.
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
>>Barbara: And so she... taught the mothers to...
pay attention to the hands of the children...
and know that they were smiling and...
and it evoked smiles in the mothers
and was very helpful for them, so...
>>Chris: Yeah, because it's gotta go both ways.
>>Barbara: Has to go both ways.
Like the video that I showed yesterday
of the woman who the-- Patricia and the caregiver
>>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: who was--
when she noticed the baby's smile,
she did like this, and when she was...
smelling... [laughs]
she allowed Patricia to touch her mouth.
And so...
>>Matt: To touch those emotions.
>>Barbara: To touch, right. Exactly.
>>Chris: Or acknowledge them and just that I see you smiling.
I thought that was so beautiful.
>>Barbara: Exactly. Yeah.
>>Chris: You know, Matt--
there's this thing that I...
videotaped of Matt a long time ago,
and it's funny as a side note, you know,
you've talked about how you've watched some of these videos
so many times, so...
Matt and I--
and it's probably torture for Matt
[laughter] because he's in the video but...
we've watched it so many times, you know
and it's the same thing. You see something new...
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chsris: ...all the time.
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
>>Chris: But Matt's working with our our friend Jarvis.
And I just think it's this most beautiful moment where...
there's some place that Jarvis hasn't been...
And they're exploring drums.
And there's a moment where...
Matt taps on this drum...
and it startles Jarvis.
And Matt just goes...
'It's OK, you're scared.'
You know? And it's just like...
'Wow!' You know?
I mean, that's exactly...
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah,. >>Chris: What you should do.
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: And I just feel like...
>>Matt: What that makes me think...
of a...
a story of shared emotion
with him that I think was a...
a moment where I learned...
a lesson from a student. >>Barbara: Mm hmm.
>>Matt: And it...
it was he was supposed to go home.
You know, he was at Texas School for the Blind
-a residential school-
so knowing when he goes home on the weekend
was like the most important information...
>>Barbara: Yeah.
'When am I going to go see my mom again?'
And occasionally it wasn't a regular schedule.
You know, holidays would happen...
the pattern would be broken, so...
It was always a topic of discussion.
And so there was one week where...
we had told him all week he was going home.
And then at the end of the week
I went to a training-- I was out on that Friday--
and having told him he was going to go home
all week on Friday...
and then at the end of the day...
he got to his dormitory...
and discovered that he wasn't going home.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: And they... >>Barbara: Oh, boy.
the dorm staff-- I know! >>Barbara: Oh, boy!
[sympathetic laugh] Boy.
>>Matt: Obviously this was distressing to Jarvis
and so his dorm staff was trying to help him
and talk to him about it
and explain what had happened and...
to varying degrees of success.
You know, they weren't sure the language
that he would understand in that context,
and they said, 'Well, call Matt and see if he has any ideas.'
And they called and I said, 'Well, I'm about to come back
to the school, so let me come in and say-- talk to him.'
And I remember approaching him thinking,
'I have no idea what I can say to explain this.'
And...
But when he, you know, I said hello and who I was,
and he just grabbed me and hugged me and cried.
And I just I didn't-- at that point wasn't thinking
about what I could do other than hug him.
And we-- I remember we kind of rocked together
for a little bit and I thought,
'Well, this is what I can do right
to be with him and this feeling.'
And then, you know...
I don't know how long that lasted
but a little while, but I remember then...
...signing, 'Sorry.' >>Barbara: Mm hmm.
>>Matt: While we were still in that embrace.
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
>>Matt: And...
It just it felt nice, I remember it feeling nice,
and Jarvis calmed down
and without a lot of other discussion
he just kind of proceeded through his weekend
and all was... OK.
But I did notice that after that
any time there was an unexpected break
or a mistake that someone had made
in not being able to explain it to him
that they could sign 'sorry.'
>>Barbara: Oh!
>>Matt: And that felt like the concept was...
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: ...clear.
And therefore, he...
he had the piece of information
that he needed to forgive maybe.
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah, that's a great story.
>>Matt: He was a great teacher. Wasn't he, Chris?
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. >>Chris: Yeah.
Big time. >>Barbara: Big time.
It's the word at the very same time that he's feeling it.
>>Matt: 'Oh, I heard you say that.'
>>Barbara: Yeah, that...
Carol Crook had the...
she was a teacher at Perkins...
and I admired her so much,
and she wrote in...
'Remarkable Conversation' she said...
the time to sign or say a word...
is the moment when you... feel...
she might have said 'think'
but I guess I might say 'feel'--
feel that the child has that word in their mind
or in their heart.
I mean, he was feeling that at the moment that maybe,
you know, so strongly and somehow it was--
it's like a body memory of that time
and then the safety and then the word
all at the same time, you know.
>>Matt: So it's like all those emotions
working with the kind of cognitive aspect, right?
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: Like, together?
>>Barbara: Yeah.
I mean, for me, also part of my...
journey in this field has been...
I mean, it's just been amazing over many years.
And I have to say I'm not a full-time teacher.
I have never been- except for the early years-
a full-time teacher.
But I've had the opportunity to meet...
many, many Deafblind...
children...
and adults and...
teachers and...
one of the...
things that I've had to learn myself is that...
I have to be able to hold those feelings
in myself in order to acknowledge them
in other...
in others.
>>Chris: That also reminds me of a story that I've...
constantly reminded of... --that Jarvis story--
of Ray...
--a little guy that I used to work with...
I think he came to the school when he was like five
you know, which is really, really young.
And it was an exceptional...
sort of thing that he came that early.
But he was... really had a lot of trouble, he...
didn't understand where he was at, and of course...
you know, was just disattached from his mom
and stuff like that at that age.
But we went on to be really tight, really good friends,
you know, and grew very close.
And this is a long story and I'll make it short.
But one of the things that we did, among other things,
was when we would greet each other in the morning...
we would-- we would sign 'hug'--
and he had some hearing, he didn't have vision,
but he had some hearing-- and I would say 'hug.'
And then he'd fall into me, you know, and I'd squeeze
and he like, it was kind of a rough houser or kind of guy.
And he would also-- he came to...
that came to be a really nice thing to do with him
when he would get upset or scared or something,
you know, is that hug thing and a tight squeeze.
And he left the school and I went to Outreach
and I lost touch with him for...
I don't know, it must have been...
close to 10 years I'm not really sure,
but something around there.
And we got a referral for him.
And it's like, 'Oh my God, it's Ray!
I haven't seen him in forever.
What happened to him?'
I lost touch with him and his mom.
And so I went to the school where he was at
and he was in really bad shape.
He'd just been kind of sitting on this couch for--
nobody talking to him, really for a couple of years.
His head was all wrapped up in this bandage.
He looked like a mummy.
And...
he had-- the reason for that was because he was
really self-abusive, he was banging his head a lot
and somebody would get close he'd try to...
headbutt them and stuff, you know, it's just a really...
bad thing and... So...
You know, I remember it was-- it's such a vivid memory--
but I talked to the teacher for a little while,
like 'what's going on?'
And he kind of told me, like, 'we just don't know what to do.'
You know, we're kind--
was implying that they were all so scared.
And I remember going over to this couch
and being a little scared myself, you know,
it's like, 'what's going to happen?
Is he going to remember me?
Is he going to try to knock me out,
you know, like or whatever?'
And I unwrapped all this bandage around his head, you know,
and it was just like falling to the floor,
like it was just piles of it, it seemed like.
And here's Ray standing in front of me
and instead of being this tall he's, you know...
like close to six feet and...
he's, like, got facial hair and stuff, you know, and...
[laughter]
And so it's like, 'Wow, you know, and-'
>>Barbara: Wow.
>>Chris: This crowd had gathered around us
like the call went out down the hall,
like 'the guy from Austin's here...'
[laughter]
like, 'what's going to happen? Let's go check it out.'
>>Barbara: Oh boy.
>>Chris: And so I'm standing there
and there's the circle around us, you know.
And I didn't quite really realize that I was
really trying to focus on Ray, and I just had
his hands in mine and we were kind of doing some,
you know, little hand games or something, you know,
just to say hi.
And I remember, though, that I--
something made me go 'hug,' you know,
and giving this hug and...
kind of tentatively like, is he going to headbutt me
if I do this, but...
bring him close to me and...
And then the teacher, something, you know, it's--
some stuff happened and the teacher said something,
and I turned to look at her...
and this crowd sort of this--
all I can say, is sort of this like gasp or something.
It's not quite the way it was,
but something...
I sensed something in the crowd.
And I look back and here after all these years,
Ray was signing 'hug' to me, you know.
Same kind of thing. It was like that.
To me, it was not only like, 'I remember you
and I remember this thing that we did
and that it was a comfort to me.'
And it was-- but it was also like,
'Hey, everybody, I'm somebody.'
You know... >>Barbara: Mm hmm!
Like 'I'm somebody in the world.
All these people who...
haven't known that.'
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: You know?
>>Barbara: 'I'm a person.' >>Chris: 'I'm a person and...
>>Barbara: Human.
>>Chris: 'I remember this guy from 10 years ago.
I remember what we did and...
>>Barbara: Wow.
>>Chris: You know, there's just so much
in that simple gesture it seems.
>>Barbara: Did you know at all beforehand
that he had recognized you before you did that?
>>Chris: I still did not. >>Barbara: You still didn't.
>>Chris: That was my epiphany to myself.
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
>>Chris: I was just like... >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: Wow. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
>>Chris: I absolutely didn't. >>Barbara: Yeah.
Wow, so that was the moment when he did this.
>>Chris: Yeah.... Yeah...
Yeah.
>>Barbara: Wow.
>>Matt: That just makes me think how rooted
memory is in emotion.
>>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: I think that's the point I was trying to make.
>>Barbara: Which reminds me of Gunnar Vega's...
notion of bodily emotional traces.
And yeah, I think that confirms that in a way.
That's probably the source of memory.
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: And now I'm thinking that...
in a way...
teachers are taught to look forward all the time.
I think I was as a teacher, you have a plan,
you have like goals, you have this...
sort of forward-looking thing.
And...
That's fine...
But we also have to look backwards
and remember things like...
have memory for what has happened.
And I believe that the children...
and adults-- that everyone has memories,
sometimes they don't have words attached, but...
And that that kind of a view is a way
of thinking about many things in Deafblind education.
Like, I can say this because I'm so old,
but I have all these memories of sort of little milestones
and children have memories of-- that are in their bodies.
So the way we touch and the way we interact with them...
is so important.
And memory is important, which is why I think
there are such things as memory books
in the field of Deafblindness,
so there are concrete things to make the memories.
And I also-- one of the first signs that I like to teach--
Teach! [laughter]
--that I like to expose a child to a lot is...
'Remember.' 'Remember you and me?
Yesterday?
We did this,' you know? Like...
So to come in every day with...
'How was yesterday?' And then 'How...
How might tomorrow be?
You know, if given that so...
Before the calendar, is the memory.
[laugh]
You, know, like... >>Chris: Yeah.
I'm so glad you said that because I...
that was an epiphany for me. >>Barbara: Yeah, I could tell.
>>Chris: Yesterday when you talked about that.
>>Barbara: Oh!
>>Chris: I was like, of course, you know,
Would you talk a little bit more about-- I mean--
go further on that...
thought of 'You have to have the memory before you...'
>>Barbara: I guess it's just that...
every life has its developmental arc and that you can't...
you can only live it forward, but...
you... [laughs]
everybody lives...
also with memories wherever they are, you know.
And...
Just realizing that makes me...
respect the children's arc.
So even...
Let's just say that even a child who...
only lives for... a few years...
their life still has-- has an arc to it and so...
Well, that's where-- that's where I'm going now but...
Ask that question again because...
Could I say more about memory?
>>Chris: It was-- It was...
Just this idea that you can't really teach without...
memories. You know, there's not...
There's newness, but it has to be...
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: Brought from this experience or this memory
that it's built upon almost, you know?
>>Barbara: Yeah, that's a good way of saying it.
[laughs] Better than... >>Chris: No!
[crosstalk] >>Matt: I remember you...
making the comment that memory comes before anticipation?
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: Can you explain what you mean when you say
memory comes before anticipation.
>>Barbara: Well, I guess they go together, but...
Now I'm relating it to...
what I heard...
Jan Van Dijk say one time that...
calendars, for example, are...
meant to be...
for conversation. [laughs]
They aren't just the schedule.
>>Matt: What?! [Laughter]
>>Chris: Yeah, I mean, that's amazing!
[laughter] Herasy!
[laughter]
>>Barbara: So that's where my mind went with that.
And so...
And they also have to do with relationship.
I mean, it matters who...
who is... who is with...
[laughs] a person at a given time.
I mean, your story about Ray.
Like, there you were and you--
he had that memory and...
maybe then the anticipation and just the fact that...
that all those people saw that.
You know, maybe... then...
'Oh, he has a memory.'
>>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Guess what?
>>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: So maybe...
>>Chris: There's a person under those bandages.
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah. Right.
>>Matt: Well, I know I've heard you talk
about how important it is
and you mentioned...
earlier about feeling safe.
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: In order to learn...
...and calm. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
>>Matt: And so if we have those memories of connection...
>>Barbara: Yeah.
Matt: We can reflect and then...
out of that reflection
comes our feeling of safety and security and trust.
And then maybe we can start to be brave enough
to look forward and start to anticipate
without it being overwhelming, without...
>>Barbara: Exactly! >>Matt: ...the unknown.
>>Chris: Sometimes you look forward and it's scary sometimes.
>>Barbara: It's scary. It's very scary.
It can be really.
>>Chris: It can be exciting and fun too,
but sometimes it's yeah.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: Especially if you don't have a conception
of what might happen, you know?
>>Barbara: And that all sort of...
converges in the present moment.
[laughs]
You know, in the sense of just like being present.
>>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Being present for...
the child or the adult...
or, I mean, all being present with each other
in a way that... Yeah.
So...
If-- and I'm struck by the fact that,
yes, safety and belonging and...
generosity-- all the forms of the circle of courage.
You know, looking at... >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: What are the values that guide us? I mean...
And....
Yeah.
>>Matt: I was going to ask, can you can you talk briefly
about what the circle of courage is...
and how you came to discover it...
and why you think it's helpful...
for when thinking about how to support the learning
or the development of Deafblind kids?
>>Barbara: Yeah, like I said in the training...
I was originally introduced to it in Vermont by...
by Larry Brendtro
who came to do a workshop in Vermont about it and...
I mean, you happen to be interested in it, too. [laughs]
So... that made me so happy.
And I was just so struck by the...
--his whole presentation-- but by the wheel
of the circle of courage and...
how the elements of that make up a good life and...
and what, you know--
and I'm forgetting what his terms are,
but I made an adaptation for Deafblindness.
He has four. And so help me...
>>Matt: I think 'mastery' is one. >>Barbara: 'Mastery.'
>>Matt: There's the-- I think he referred to
as the 'spirit of mastery' and the 'spirit of generosity'
the 'spirit of independence' and...
>>Chris: Courage. >>Barbara: 'Belonging.'
>>Matt: And 'belonging.' >>Chris: 'Belonging.'
>>Matt: Yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah.
'Belonging.' >>Matt: The 'spirit of belonging.'
[crosstalk]
>>Barbara: And I mean both of your stories speak to...
all those things.
And most maybe especially belonging,
which might be the safety.
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Similar to the safety if we're not alone.
[laughs]
>>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: But...
maybe goes up, you know, goes with it.
And the one I added was 'understanding.'
Meaning some sense of how the world around me works.
Which can't be taken for granted...
by somebody who has...
impaired vision and hearing because...
we develop our concepts-- we who can see and hear--
[laughs] less and less all the time, I might add--
[laughter]
We who can see and hear can...
can learn about how the world works
just by watching and listening.
And kids do. [laughs]
So we need to be mindful of how...
you know, how they...
what they see... [laughs] and hear.
[laughs]
And that, I mean, I guess that piece--
I'm just coming to this right now--
That piece is really pretty important.
We need to be mindful of what they see and hear.
And then with the child who's Deafblind
sometimes the only avenue-- if they're totally Deafblind--
--is touch. >>Matt: Yeah.
>>Barbara: And here's where I...
remember and remind people that Helen Keller had...
two years before she went totally Deafblind and so...
The amount that a child learns in two years is...
I'm sure... you're aware of it.
>>Matt: As a father, yeah.
>>Barbara: Yeah! [laughs] Totally, right?
>>Matt: All he's learned that I didn't teach him.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: And there was no-- no plan.
I didn't have...
IEP goals set out... >>Barbara: No, right.
>>Matt: But...
>>Chris: Concept of Spider-Man...
[laughter]
>>Matt: It came to him incidentally, that's for sure.
>>Barbara: And pirates. [laugh] >>Matt: [indiscernible]
Yeah, absolutely.
So all that understanding...
you know, some kids just get with vision and hearing.
>>Barbara: Right. >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Right. >>Chris: It's a big, big world.
Big, goofy world.
>>Barbara: It's a big, goofy world.
[laughs]
>>Chris: You, Barbara, talked about--
and you've been talking
a lot this few days about 'a-ha moments.'
And there was one story that you told that I just love,
and...
I wonder if you would kinda tell it again
and it was...
about when you really started thinking about...
touch and you said that you had...
stopped teaching for a while
and were really working as a potter
and you came back... to teach again.
And I just wonder if you would talk about that.
>>Barbara: Yeah, I just talked about that...
yesterday, I guess, and...
It was interesting because I left teaching
to move back to Vermont because I love Vermont
and I'd been connected with it for many years
and had already...
had some land there and wanted to be back where I...
felt really comfortable.
And I...
I left and I had taken a lot of pottery lessons,
which I totally enjoyed.
And gotten pretty good at it.
And so when I got back
I decided to keep going with pottery
and... I started making pots and selling them
and making a living that way.
But mainly I spent hours and hours and hours throwing pots.
And I realized that my hands got quite sensitive...
in that way-- I mean, I think I've always had sensitive hands--
but anyway...
And so then I went back to...
Boston to do something completely different, actually.
[laughs] And then...
Perkins offered me a job again.
And so I went back to Perkins and I...
was teaching, at that time, teenagers and they had...
become totally proficient at...
following sign language with their hands.
And so-- and the class that I taught was three...
teenagers who were all tactile signers.
So I thought I was going to be a worse teacher
because I hadn't been there for all those years--
five years-- and I didn't really know...
>>Chris: 'Could I ride the bike again?'
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
And...
I actually felt like I knew I was better.
And it was because of the sensitivity in my hands.
So somehow that...
coming together was what led to the eventual...
article that I wrote about...
talking the language of the hands to the hands.
>>Chris: That's an amazing sort of journey to that...
I don't know what you call it--
understanding like that deeper understanding of...
what all this means.
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Chris: That's just wow.
>>Matt: I know you talked to us a little bit
about how that experience...
and that thinking about touch
and how it provided you extra insight...
led you to think differently about the touch
of your students and how they used touch
to learn and the various ways they use touch.
Can you kinda describe that to us?
>>Barbara: Hmmm.
>>Chris: [laughs]
You talk about me asking big questions, right?
[laughter] [crosstalk]
>>Matt: How about your life's work?
[laughter] [crosstalk]
What I was getting at is...
you told the story yesterday about...
touch as a tool.
And how you felt like it was important
to get people to understand that...
they're using touch more than a tool.
>>Barbara: They're using their hands more than a tool.
>>Matt: Their hands! I'm sorry.
>>Barbara: I was talking about hands as a tool.
Because I was trying to explain how important
touch was for blind people and for Deafblind people.
And I had developed such respect for the...
students' hands that I could no longer control them.
And so I was trying to figure out
how to explain to someone who...
did the...
controlling of the hands, which...
I was taught when I was in school
you know, like this is how you get a blind child
to do something.
You take their hand and you put it on the...
...mug. [laughs] >>Chris: Yeah.
Feel that mug. >>Barbara: Yeah, feel that mug.
[laughter] [crosstalk]
>>Barbara: Pick that up. Pick that up.
And then all of a sudden I realized that, 'Oh, I get it.'
I mean, when we have vision we...
use our hands mostly--
most people use their hands mostly--
under the direction of their eye,
so it's like a tool that...
I mean, that's my... conceptualization of it, but...
many people are so unaware of their hands
that it's just they're always under the guidance
of their... sight.
>>Matt: Sight first then... >>Barbara: Sight first...
and then... so... but...
That's not what they need to be used for
for a person who's blind or...
Deafblind or... >>Matt: Mm hmm.
>>Barbara: ...vision impaired.
You know, like... [laughs]
They have to be...
eyes too.
And they have to be... ears.
They have to hear sound sometimes
with their hands and then they have to...
speak with their hands.
Maybe sign language, you know. >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Matt: Emote. >>Barbara: Emote.
>>Matt: Like you were saying earlier, right?
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
Oh, that's a whole thing. Like feeling.
>>Matt: Feeling.
>>Barbara: Yeah, feeling with your hands.
Oh, that's-- >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: That's one I didn't put on the list.
So that's up to you guys. >>Matt: OK!
[laughter]
>>Chris: And that kind of goes to Gunnar
you know, I watch those videos how he's...
>>Barbara: Exactly! Exactly!
Right, right.
>>Chris: You see-- you can see it...
when you're watching it. I can't really imagine what it...
feels like, though. >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: You know, I mean, that must be so...
...powerful.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
And then he has this gesture that he taught me about.
When you're--
talk about speaking and listening--
when you're doing tactile sign
like if you're signing with someone
you know, and you're signing and then...
I'm done with my turn so...
Has he showed you that? >>Matt: I've seen him do it.
>>Barbara: And so... this is like...
a communication that's so delicate and it's like...
Now it's your turn.
And I'm listening. And then...
So this is like-- Yeah, yeah.
>>Matt: Now I'm listening. >>Barbara: Relax your hands.
>>Barbara: Yeah, that's different.
[laughter] [crosstalk]
>>Barbara: Yeah. So, yeah.
I remember there was somebody in the training yesterday
who is a massage therapist, and...
>>Matt: Yeah.
>>Barbara: I'm pretty sure he probably has a good sensitivity
with children because...
he's had that sort of practice.
>>Chris: He does. We've seen it.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: He's pretty awesome. >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: We started our discussion--
You started our discussion...
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: ...about the value of stories...
>>Barbara: Yeah. >>Matt: That you learned from...
from your students.
Are there any...
are there any other ones that come to mind
or that you want to share with us...
that you think are important lessons
for other people to know... to hear about or to think about?
>>Barbara: One of my goals in coming here was to...
empower...
people here to...
keep gathering stories.
And so...
I could keep telling stories all day.
[laughs]
But...
Just to have that...
confidence that we all have stories
and that every teacher has stories.
And...
Yeah, I'll tell that story about a time when...
when I was...
asked to consult about a young woman who...
was blind and...
she actually had some hearing, but...
they were worried at the school that her hearing was...
declining because she had stopped speaking.
And so...
When I went to the school...
I asked to observe her all day.
And I did. And...
it was true, she barely said a word the whole entire day.
And...
I wouldn't say she was particularly oppositional,
she just was mute.
And... And she was blind.
And at the end of the day, we had a meeting and the staff...
were sitting around a big table
and there was a young woman I hadn't met there.
And...
I just asked to go around the table
and hear from everybody...
what their observation of the student had been.
And they all went around and they all said,
'She's mute. She's mute.
She isn't speaking. She isn't speaking.'
And...
And then I got to the last person whom I hadn't met,
and it was a young woman that was about the age of...
the student, the girl.
And I said, 'So are you...
--What is your experience? Is she...
Does she talk with you?' And...
She said, 'Yeah, she talks all the time.'
And I said, 'Oh, what... What does she talk about?'
And...
And she said, 'Oh, she talks about...
makeup and she talks about...
boys and she talks about music
and she talks about clothes.'
And I said, 'Oh!
And what do you talk to her about?'
'Oh, I tell her about my boyfriend
and I tell her about the music I'm listening to
and I tell her about...
all kinds of things that are going on in my life.'
And I could just see all the other people were like,
'Oh... OK.' [laughter]
[laughs]
And...
'Oh she's not losing her hearing.
She just hasn't found mutual topics yet.'
[laughs] >>Matt: Mm hmm.
>>Chris: Yep!
>>Barbara: I should say that joint topic, joint attention.
So that's-- that experience really informed me
because I thought, 'Well, if you're talking about things
that the kid is not interested in at all,
you can talk all you want.'
[laughs] >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Chris: And it's pretty much how I am too.
I mean, just saying, you know.
[laughter]
>>Matt: Well, everyone to a certain degree, right?
>>Chris: And that's what-- that's what I mean.
>>Barbara: Exactly.
So that's why we have more than one friendship, you know.
And it's because they address different aspects of ourselves.
So...
Anyway, I don't know if that answers your...
>>Chris: That's a really great story.
>>Barbara: OK.
Yeah, I just like I can't forget it.
Obviously.
>>Chris: Yeah.
It's a good human life lesson kind of thing.
>>Barbara: And it reminds me, too, of the...
thing that I said several times
in the last couple of days that...
it grows, this feeling, but that...
we have to trust... the...
students as much as get them to trust us.
And those happen... you know, jointly...
So...
Just trusting, you know...
the intelligence of...
whoever I'm with, you know?
Everyone has their own form--
everyone, everyone, everyone--
has their own form of intelligence including...
the most...
The child that we might think is the least intelligent
has their own form of intelligence, you know?
And...
It's up to us to maybe...
recognize it and trust that. >>Matt: Yeah, yeah.
>>Chris: Because it could be profound.
You just don't know. >>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
Probably is profound. >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: You know? >>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: And... >>Chris: That's what I believe.
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
>>Matt: And your stories make me...
realize and believe, too, that...
that they have that intelligence there and it's...
there waiting for-- to share it.
That's innate. >>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
>>Matt: That there's never been a child
that didn't want to share.
>>Chris: Yeah. >>Barbara: Right.
>>Matt: And so...
that's what I think about when you say-- when we...
when we look to them, when we respect them.
>>Barbara: Respect. Yeah. >>Matt: We look again.
>>Matt: We're looking again...
and listening. Yeah. >>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: We're listening for...
that essence of who they are...
that interest... >>Barbara: Yeah.
and that it all kind of can...
grow from there. >>Barbara: Yeah... yeah.
>>Matt: It's a good lesson, huh? To learn.
[Chris laughs] >>Barbara: A really good less--
It's a life-- it's a lifetime lesson, believe me.
[laughs]
Yeah. [laugh]