1
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,920
>>Chris: Hi... We're going
to introduce ourselves
2
00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,960
and I will start by saying
that I'm Chris Montgomery
3
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,760
and I work for the Texas
School for the Blind
4
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,520
and Visually Impaired
in Austin.
5
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,759
And I am part of the
Outreach Department
6
00:00:35,759 --> 00:00:38,240
and the Deafblind
education team.
7
00:00:38,719 --> 00:00:40,079
>>Matt: My name
is Matt Schultz
8
00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:42,200
and I too am a member
of the Texas School
9
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,200
for the Blind Deafblind
outreach team.
10
00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,600
And like Chris,
I'm an ed consultant.
11
00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,600
That means I work in school
districts across the state
12
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,719
with children, their teachers,
and their families.
13
00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:55,960
>>Barbara: Hi,
I'm Barbara Miles.
14
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,719
I live in Vermont, which is
far away from here,
15
00:00:59,719 --> 00:01:04,879
and I've just been in Texas
for nearly a week now
16
00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:08,799
and had a wonderful time,
an amazing time
17
00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:13,920
talking with both Chris
and Matt and also...
18
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,439
doing some trainings
with teachers
19
00:01:18,439 --> 00:01:19,879
and...
20
00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:22,959
people who work with children
who are Deafblind.
21
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,840
And I'm just about retired.
22
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,799
And I am old.
[laughs]
23
00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:35,400
And it is one of the most
wonderful things in my life
24
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,640
that I've spent all this time
in this field.
25
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,400
So I'm just really
grateful for the chance
26
00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:49,400
to be here and to tell stories
about my experiences
27
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:58,319
with children and parents
over many, many years now.
28
00:01:58,319 --> 00:02:01,319
>>Chris: Well, Barbara,
before we were having
29
00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:03,680
these cameras roll,
we talked a little bit.
30
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,000
And one of the things that
you've been telling Matt and I
31
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,800
is that you really wanted
to pass the torch, so to speak.
32
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,319
The metaphor of 'all right,
I'm going to come down here
33
00:02:17,319 --> 00:02:21,319
one more time, you guys'
because we're so persuasive.
34
00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:23,960
We saw you in the
parking lot
35
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,919
in Massachusetts
and talked to you
36
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:31,759
into coming down, but--
at the DBI conference--
37
00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:38,319
but you've said that you want
to really kind of step away--
38
00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:40,639
last time you're coming
to Texas to do this.
39
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:41,960
[Barbara laughs]
40
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,159
And so I just wonder
the kind of--
41
00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:50,639
the question that I ask you when
the cameras weren't rolling.
42
00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,719
Your ideas on passing the torch
and what that means to you
43
00:02:53,719 --> 00:03:00,240
and then also for you and your
career, if there are any--
44
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,080
has there been anybody
that's passed the torch
45
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,199
to you and what
did that mean?
46
00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:07,479
>>Barbara: Wow, those
are big questions.
47
00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:10,000
>>Chris: They are big questions.
[Barbara laughs]
48
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,000
>>Barbara: So...
49
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,360
>>Barbara: As far as...
50
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,599
I mean, my time here,
51
00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:22,639
this time has taught me that
I never did anything alone.
52
00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:28,199
I did it with students.
I did it with families.
53
00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:33,800
I did it with mentors
in the field
54
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,520
and who included a number
of people that I think
55
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,159
are on your Texas website
[laughs]
56
00:03:43,159 --> 00:03:45,240
because you all
have brought
57
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,080
so many wise people
in the field here,
58
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:54,599
and I'm indebted
to every one of them.
59
00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:59,599
And I'm also indebted
to every child,
60
00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:03,800
just about every child
I've ever interacted with
61
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,960
who's Deafblind
or not.
62
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,080
And I...
63
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,519
My aspiration is to learn
from every one of them.
64
00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:24,319
And when that's been the case,
I've learned so much.
65
00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:27,800
And I can learn,
I can learn from failures
66
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,240
as well as successes, so...
67
00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,120
Yeah.
So does that...
68
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,560
>>Chris: It makes me think
the way I framed that question,
69
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,000
I was really in my mind
thinking about, you know,
70
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,279
whether it would be
a teacher that you had.
71
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,720
You've mentioned--
I can't remember her name--
72
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,360
but your director who had
given you some ideas to sit
73
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,639
for a period of time and just be
with the student before lunch.
74
00:04:57,639 --> 00:05:01,360
>>Barbara: That was Chris Castro
at Perkins many years ago.
75
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:02,360
Yeah.
76
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,079
>>Chris: And so I'm thinking
of people like that.
77
00:05:05,079 --> 00:05:07,879
But but I--
who have may--
78
00:05:07,879 --> 00:05:10,639
who may have impacted you
like she did,
79
00:05:10,639 --> 00:05:13,800
but you just said something
that made me go,
80
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,079
'Wow, well...
81
00:05:17,079 --> 00:05:19,120
Really, it's the kids...'
82
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,959
[Barbara laughs]
83
00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:24,439
>>Matt: They were the teachers.
>>Barbara: They were.
84
00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:26,319
>>Matt: You know, you mentioned
that you learned from...
85
00:05:26,319 --> 00:05:28,879
your failures...
86
00:05:28,879 --> 00:05:31,519
and you also mentioned
you had a long career.
87
00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:35,079
And I know there's
many lessons
88
00:05:35,079 --> 00:05:38,079
and many lessons
hard-learned.
89
00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:40,079
I'm wondering, what--
90
00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:42,160
are there any specific
that come to mind?
91
00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,959
Maybe thinking back to when
you were a new teacher
92
00:05:45,959 --> 00:05:50,959
and that experience of looking
to your children was new?
93
00:05:50,959 --> 00:05:54,319
What lesson did you--
what big lesson to learn?
94
00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:55,360
>>Barbara: The failures?
95
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,560
You're talking specifically
about... [laughs]
96
00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,639
>>Matt: Well, if that's
where maybe
97
00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:02,199
a new understanding was born.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
98
00:06:02,199 --> 00:06:04,079
>>Matt: You know, so it
doesn't have to be a failure,
99
00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:06,560
but a shift
in thinking.
100
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,279
>>Barbara: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
101
00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,120
Well, back to what Chris
just asked me,
102
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,279
that time when
I was a-
103
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,879
I think I was a second
or third year teacher.
104
00:06:20,879 --> 00:06:25,040
I was teaching this little girl
who was very oppositional
105
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,600
and she didn't want to do
anything I wanted her to do
106
00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,959
and she was--
she was fierce.
107
00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:35,120
[laughs]
108
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,600
And...
109
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,639
And that was when Chris Castro
suggested that I sit down
110
00:06:41,639 --> 00:06:46,240
with her every day and
just have a conversation.
111
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,759
Just talk with her about...
112
00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:53,639
whatever she wanted
to talk about.
113
00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:55,920
And...
114
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,959
My supervisor told me
that I am so lucky
115
00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:01,680
because most of the--
I mean, I was a pretty new
116
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,279
teacher and I just thought,
'I have to have lessons.
117
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,480
I have to like do stuff
that is important.'
118
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,279
And she said, 'Well, just
take 15-20 minutes every day
119
00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:21,800
and just sit with this girl
and see what she'd like
120
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:27,120
to talk about and do it
right before lunch.'
121
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:28,800
That was what
she told me.
122
00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,959
And so I've taken that
to heart because I think
123
00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:38,720
it's good to have a sort of
natural close to a conversation.
124
00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,759
So I did that and
it was amazing!
125
00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:47,120
It completely turned
around my...
126
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,720
relationship with this
little girl.
127
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,240
And she listened
to me after that,
128
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,240
but I had to listen
to her first.
129
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,720
So that was sort of the--
I think that was maybe
130
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,839
the beginning of my interest
in conversation as a...
131
00:08:06,839 --> 00:08:11,560
real important...
132
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,000
what do I want to say--
an important...
133
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,319
center to my thinking
134
00:08:18,319 --> 00:08:21,519
about children
who are Deafblind.
135
00:08:21,519 --> 00:08:23,959
And a center to my feeling
because I think
136
00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:28,800
good conversation
is something we all know
137
00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,759
in our bones what
that feels like.
138
00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:34,399
So...
139
00:08:34,399 --> 00:08:39,879
Thank her for giving me
the permission to have that.
140
00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:40,840
>>Chris: Yeah, yeah.
141
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:46,879
It's interesting, I heard you
also talk about...
142
00:08:46,879 --> 00:08:49,000
to the teachers that you were
talking to over the last
143
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,840
couple days to give...
144
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,320
kind of that same idea
back to them
145
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,440
of give yourself
permission.
146
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,240
If it's five minutes
a day just to be...
147
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,919
and just to be patient,
though too.
148
00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:05,919
To wait.
149
00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:09,320
Because it may not
happen immediately.
150
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,919
And we talked a little bit
about how some of the kids
151
00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:18,720
that you had worked with that
were very low language
152
00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,799
and didn't have a lot
of motor movement and stuff,
153
00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:27,519
how you had just sat
with them very quietly
154
00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:29,840
and stilly and
breathed with them.
155
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,240
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
156
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,600
>>Chris: And what
happened with that.
157
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,000
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
158
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,840
Right.
159
00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,519
And it doesn't even take
five minutes to have
160
00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:45,080
a few turns in life,
you know, like...
161
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,639
moving from one place
to another or whatever.
162
00:09:49,639 --> 00:09:52,840
Little conversations
can happen
163
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:58,720
even in very small,
very short spaces of time.
164
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,120
Yeah.
165
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:07,159
>>Matt: Why, why is it
that you think Deafblind kids
166
00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:12,559
might be at risk or lack
an opportunity to have
167
00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,720
conversations the way
their peers might?
168
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,519
And...
169
00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:20,600
how does that impact
your thinking or...
170
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,759
how might it impact
our thinking
171
00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:25,279
as educators that work
with these kids?
172
00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:29,519
>>Barbara: Well, a child who
doesn't have vision or hearing
173
00:10:29,519 --> 00:10:31,799
or who has
very little of it...
174
00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,240
hasn't had the
opportunity to...
175
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,039
see that other people
have conversations
176
00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:42,559
or overhear the
conversations,
177
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:47,440
or maybe hasn't
had partners that...
178
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,919
evoke...
just this...
179
00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:55,240
sense of what it's like to have
a back and forth interaction.
180
00:10:55,240 --> 00:11:00,360
Although, I mean, you have
to think about it.
181
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:07,159
Just about every child has
had some experience of...
182
00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:09,639
comfort with another person.
[laugh]
183
00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:11,120
>>Matt: Hmm.
>>Barbara: And that's what we're...
184
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,720
looking for- kind of a trust
and a comfort.
185
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,759
>>Chris: Connection.
>>Barbara: Yeah, a connection.
186
00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:20,879
And if they haven't,
there's the potential there.
187
00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:25,480
That's my belief and
faith, ultimately.
188
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,080
That...
Yeah.
189
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,279
So does that answer what
you were thinking about?
190
00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:32,279
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
191
00:11:32,279 --> 00:11:33,960
Or do you have
anything to add?
192
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,519
>>Matt: Well, no, it just
occurs to me that...
193
00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:37,519
that we don't
always think...
194
00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:40,879
that that's the heart
of their program.
195
00:11:40,879 --> 00:11:43,200
>>Barbara: [laughing] Yeah.
>>Matt: You know...
196
00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,039
or that that's the heart
of learning.
197
00:11:45,039 --> 00:11:46,159
>>Barbara: Yeah.
198
00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,879
>>Matt: And it has dawned
on me through listening to you
199
00:11:50,879 --> 00:11:52,879
and your experiences
with those kids...
200
00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:54,120
that I...
201
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,360
have had similar
experiences.
202
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,879
That it's not until
we get to that...
203
00:11:59,879 --> 00:12:02,000
position where we're willing
to look to them
204
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,679
and to listen
to them
205
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,480
and follow
their lead
206
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,279
that they then
follow our lead.
207
00:12:08,279 --> 00:12:14,159
And so that modeling of giving
up that kind of control
208
00:12:14,159 --> 00:12:16,440
kind of changes
the dynamic.
209
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,200
You know, you describe
that one student as a little...
210
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:20,960
oppositional.
211
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:21,960
>>Barbara: Yeah, right.
>>Matt: You know?
212
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,759
I think that all teachers
have felt at times
213
00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:28,120
that they're in that mode
with the kid,
214
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,639
'I want this and
they want that.'
215
00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:33,039
And so...
216
00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:36,200
I think it's enlightening
for people to hear
217
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,559
that when you're
in that mode
218
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,480
that you don't need
to exert more control.
219
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:41,440
[Barbara laughs]
Right?
220
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,720
>>Barbara: Yeah.
221
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:43,559
Well, good luck!
222
00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,799
[laughter and crosstalk]
223
00:12:45,799 --> 00:12:48,000
>>Matt: But giving
up that control and...
224
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,679
and just...
225
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,480
looking to where
their interests are,
226
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,720
what their
topics are
227
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,000
and joining them.
228
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,960
That then it kind
of turns it on its head.
229
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:56,480
>>Barbara: Yeah.
230
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:57,759
>>Matt: And then
the teaching--
231
00:12:57,759 --> 00:13:00,320
or then the learning
begins, you know?
232
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,360
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: Does that makes sense?
233
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,799
>>Barbara: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
234
00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:06,679
And you know
the person better.
235
00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:08,519
So you know...
236
00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:11,279
the way to...
237
00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:15,840
spark their enthusiasm
and joy and...
238
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,080
And that's...
239
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,600
I mean, we don't learn
when we're tense.
240
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:21,639
[laughs]
241
00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:27,440
And I remember
Dr. Van Dijk saying...
242
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,639
only when one
is calm and alert
243
00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:32,840
does learning
really happen.
244
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,399
>>Chris: Yeah.
245
00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:35,840
Yeah.
It's true for me.
246
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,480
[laughs]
>>Matt: Yeah.
247
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,799
>>Chris: I don't know, I just
think that's just really...
248
00:13:38,799 --> 00:13:41,200
cool stuff to think about.
249
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,200
You know, in...
250
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:45,360
I've been reading--
251
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,000
rereading some of your articles
and your books and stuff
252
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,159
and somewhere...
253
00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:54,159
in some place...
254
00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:57,240
you used the word
'teacher-ese,' you know?
255
00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:58,559
[laughter]
256
00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,840
I thought that
was so great.
257
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,320
And...
258
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,000
I just think it's kind of what
you both are saying
259
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,000
or I guess we're all saying,
you know, you...
260
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,799
get caught in this
thing where
261
00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:11,159
it's my job
as a teacher
262
00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:14,200
to come in and impart
information and...
263
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,039
instead of...
264
00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:23,960
relaxing, I guess, and having
this conversation that...
265
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,440
that's the human thing.
And it feels like...
266
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:27,399
you know...
>>Barbara: Yeah.
267
00:14:27,399 --> 00:14:28,320
>>Chris: How can you
be a teacher
268
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,120
without having the human
thing, I guess?
269
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,440
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
270
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:32,600
>>Chris: Does that
make sense?
271
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,399
>>Barbara: Totally.
[laughs]
272
00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:36,120
Yeah.
273
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,120
And when you said
the word 'teacher-ese,'
274
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,559
I immediately
thought of that...
275
00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:41,360
thing that...
276
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,600
teachers are
taught to...
277
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,159
Well, I was like--
278
00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:46,840
Can't speak for all
programs--
279
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,080
but I was taught...
280
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,559
to give commands,
you know?
281
00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:52,399
>>Chris: Yeah, yeah.
282
00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:57,279
>>Barbara: Good luck
with a Deafblind child...
283
00:14:57,279 --> 00:15:00,279
Yeah, and that stops
the conversation
284
00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:03,120
because it's just two turns.
>>Chris: Yeah.
285
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,080
>>Barbara: Like...
'You do this.' [laughs]
286
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:05,919
>>Chris: Yeah.
287
00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:08,559
And then that person not
complying with what I just said.
288
00:15:08,559 --> 00:15:11,720
>>Barbara: [laughs]
Exactly.
289
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,600
>>Matt: It...
290
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,480
Sometimes I wonder if people
realize the connection
291
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,519
between that
and then...
292
00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:21,799
bumps in the road that they
experience with a kid.
293
00:15:21,799 --> 00:15:22,440
You know?
>>Barbara: Yeah.
294
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,360
>>Matt: Some of our students
are described as...
295
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,399
having behaviors,
you know, or...
296
00:15:28,399 --> 00:15:30,759
being behavior issues
or problems.
297
00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:31,559
>>Barbara: [laughs]
Yeah.
298
00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:35,600
>>Matt: And so is that something
that you talk to people about?
299
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,519
that...
300
00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:38,840
they're not having
behaviors,
301
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,679
but maybe they're sick of being
told what to do all day?
302
00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:43,279
>>Barbara: [laughs]
Yeah. Maybe.
303
00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:44,320
[laughs]
304
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,519
And so for a...
305
00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:49,720
a teacher listening
and thinking about this,
306
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,960
are there some
kind of...
307
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,279
simple things that you
think they can do
308
00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:56,039
to shift their
approach...
309
00:15:56,039 --> 00:15:58,000
and their thinking
that would be helpful?
310
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,679
>>Barbara: Well, I think
it's as much an attitude
311
00:16:00,679 --> 00:16:03,360
of shifting their
own view...
312
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,440
of the child...
313
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,440
and themselves
as a teacher.
314
00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:17,080
You know, we talked
in the last couple of days,
315
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,080
I like the word 'respect'
[laughs]
316
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,279
because it
means, literally...
317
00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:26,600
'to look again.'
318
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,639
So the willingness
to look again,
319
00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:32,919
to see an aspect
of a child that...
320
00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:35,320
one hasn't
seen before.
321
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,919
And for me
a really early...
322
00:16:39,919 --> 00:16:42,639
person that
helped me...
323
00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:45,320
I think I was talking
with you about it--
324
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,840
was Anne Donnellan,
who wrote an article about--
325
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,960
if my memory
serves me right--
326
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,679
behavior as communication.
327
00:16:53,679 --> 00:16:56,840
I mean, we all
have behavior, right?
328
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,360
[laughs]
>>Matt: If we're alive, right?
329
00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,600
>>Barbara: If we're alive.
[laughter]
330
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,399
[laughing]
Behavior. Exactly.
331
00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:04,359
>>Chris: Maybe some of mine's
good some of the time.
332
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,640
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly!
333
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,759
Good and bad.
334
00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:10,559
I mean, what is that
really, you know?
335
00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:15,519
But communication...
happens, you know...
336
00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:18,920
all the time
in subtle ways.
337
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,160
And... behavior is a form
of communication--
338
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,079
I mean, that's how I've
always looked at it, so...
339
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:31,680
If a child is acting out,
they're communicating something.
340
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,519
And...
341
00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:36,279
and there are skillful
and non-skillful ways
342
00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:41,000
of having a conversation
in that situation.
343
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,119
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
344
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,720
>>Barbara: And one only
learns so by... trying.
345
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,680
And by having that core
value of... respect
346
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,079
and...
equality in some way.
347
00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:56,519
I mean, like you and I
are both human.
348
00:17:56,519 --> 00:18:00,519
But I'm older.
[laughs]
349
00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:03,720
Now, as a teacher, you know,
you have responsibilities,
350
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:04,599
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
351
00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:06,440
>>Barbara: And you have
to take care of them.
352
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,440
>>Matt: Yeah, you don't
just sit there all day and...
353
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,119
>>Barbara: You don't
just sit there all day.
354
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,160
>>Matt: Do whatever
they want to do or...
355
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:13,400
just look at them.
356
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,079
>>Barbara: No, not at all.
[laughter]
357
00:18:16,079 --> 00:18:17,240
Not at all.
358
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,640
Because, I mean, that's why
Chris Castro was so wise
359
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,000
in saying, you know, have
these conversations
360
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:30,000
that are on her topics like
just for a while before lunch.
361
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,759
So, oh, guess what?
It's lunchtime.
362
00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:33,759
[laughs]
363
00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:37,200
We got to go to lunch
or before some activities.
364
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,279
So that you've given
yourself permission really
365
00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:45,839
to have a natural
end to the conversation.
366
00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:48,400
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
>>Barbara: And...
367
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,240
Yeah, and...
368
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,799
>>Matt: What as you're saying
that I'm thinking about,
369
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:55,480
you know, that
turn-taking piece.
370
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,119
That giving a turn
and taking a turn.
371
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,200
Is just essential to human
interaction, right?
372
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,880
And so...
373
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,599
if we try to teach
a kid...
374
00:19:06,599 --> 00:19:08,400
before they
know how to...
375
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,319
give a turn...
376
00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:11,960
and take a turn...
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
377
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,480
>>Matt: there's no--
You can't do it.
378
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:14,519
>>Barbara: Right.
379
00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:16,279
>>Matt: So, yeah.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
380
00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:17,559
And, you know,
the language
381
00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:20,720
that's just now
occuring to me is that...
382
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,119
I frame it
the same way, but...
383
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,680
I think of it
in terms of...
384
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,799
speaking and listening.
385
00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:29,039
>>Matt: Mmm.
386
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:30,400
And...
387
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,920
because that's
their turns, you know?
388
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,079
So...
389
00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:39,119
when someone else is speaking,
I'm listening. When I'm...
390
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,640
When I'm speaking, I hope
that they're listening, so...
391
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,720
But it's the same concept.
I think.
392
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,359
>>Chris: I think that's great.
I love-- I love that.
393
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:49,480
>>Barbara: Yeah.
394
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,960
>>Chris: I'm gonna start
saying that.
395
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,000
[laughter]
396
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,480
>>Matt: It's less
technical too.
397
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,359
>>Barbara: Which makes
me think of...
398
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,799
the circle of courage and...
399
00:20:01,799 --> 00:20:05,720
the talking stick,
the Native American...
400
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,960
talking stick,
which does that.
401
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,720
You know, like,
we're talking piece...
402
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,440
which...
403
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,880
allows the person
who's speaking to...
404
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,519
sort of have the floor.
[laughs]
405
00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:20,440
>>Matt: In a way that's really
clear to everyone, right?
406
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:21,240
>>Barbara: In a way--
407
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,839
>>Matt: On who's speaking
and who's listening.
408
00:20:24,839 --> 00:20:27,599
And so that clarification
seems like maybe for our kids
409
00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:30,720
is important because they
don't get it as easily
410
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,440
with their vision
or their hearing.
411
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:33,720
>>Barbara: Right.
412
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,759
>>Chris: I have to think
that for some of our kids,
413
00:20:35,759 --> 00:20:39,599
they've not really known
that they've had a voice
414
00:20:39,599 --> 00:20:42,880
until you start
to listen, you know?
415
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,680
>>Barbara: Exactly.
416
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,799
I'm remembering
now just the...
417
00:20:47,799 --> 00:20:51,200
fact that actually
turn-taking is...
418
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,240
hard-wired
in every person
419
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,160
because...
it happens...
420
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,359
with a mother
and baby...
421
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,000
when the mother
is nursing.
422
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,640
Or, you know, in any way,
breastfeeding
423
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,680
or giving a bottle...
424
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,440
there's this natural thing
that happens is there's a...
425
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,400
I remember reading this
and I was going,
426
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,240
'Oh yeah, that makes sense.'
427
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,960
Something called
'the burst-pause...
428
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,440
sucking reflex?'
429
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,279
Which is built
into every infant.
430
00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:28,920
And so the baby will be
nursing and pause,
431
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,440
and the mother has to do
something to encourage--
432
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,799
or naturally
does something.
433
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:38,039
I wouldn't say she's
thinking about it at all,
434
00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:42,400
but you know, it's like,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
435
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,680
So now you're
doing that and I'm...
436
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,799
Now I'm taking
my turn, and then...
437
00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:50,039
you suck, and then
I'm taking--
438
00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:51,480
that kind of thing.
You know.
439
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,960
>>Chris: It's built in.
>>Barbara: It's built in.
440
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,319
And I remember when I read that
I got much more confident
441
00:21:57,319 --> 00:22:03,559
about conversation as like
the basis for...
442
00:22:03,559 --> 00:22:04,240
>>Chris: Yeah.
443
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,480
>>Matt: That makes
a lot of sense.
444
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,839
>>Chris: Wow.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
445
00:22:08,839 --> 00:22:11,680
>>Matt: I've read about
that burst-pause, too.
446
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,400
And something that
I thought was interesting
447
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,119
was that as a part
of that process,
448
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,839
the nursing process,
the feed...
449
00:22:16,839 --> 00:22:18,000
even the feeding process
450
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,640
when the baby is six
months or eight months,
451
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,359
whenever it starts
to eat solid foods--
452
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,319
that sometimes something
that happens is that
453
00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:28,720
in that dance
of interaction of, you know,
454
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,920
are you ready for this bite
and the baby opens
455
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,920
and then the mom
goes in.
456
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,319
That then there is
like shared smiling,
457
00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:40,400
which is a big
developmental milestone.
458
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,799
And so I wonder, do you think
that that shared emotion
459
00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:46,559
that comes out of the
listening and speaking
460
00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:52,880
do you think that that plays
a role in learning and...?
461
00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:55,160
>>Barbara: Absolutely.
462
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,519
And you know what now
I'm remembering is...
463
00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:02,960
Selma Fraiberg
and reading her.
464
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:08,440
In the early days before there
were video cameras or anything,
465
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:09,640
she, you know--
466
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,640
she was a psychiatrist
who worked with blind children.
467
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:13,640
>>Matt: Yeah.
468
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,759
>>Barbara: And... she...
469
00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:19,359
took film of these
blind children
470
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,279
and she noticed that
a lot of the...
471
00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:25,319
mothers of blind
children were...
472
00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:27,480
depressed.
>>Chris: Disconnecting...
473
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,559
>>Barbara: Because there
wasn't that exchange of smiles.
474
00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:37,599
And so she took film and
she looked at the film
475
00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:40,799
and she realized...
476
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:43,720
-she had the hypothesis which
turned out to be really true-
477
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,920
that... the blind babies
were actually smiling
478
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,319
with their hands.
479
00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:51,160
And they were like--
480
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,440
when they were happy they were
doing something like this.
481
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,200
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
482
00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,640
>>Barbara: And so she...
taught the mothers to...
483
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,680
pay attention to the
hands of the children...
484
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,160
and know that
they were smiling and...
485
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,599
and it evoked smiles
in the mothers
486
00:24:13,599 --> 00:24:17,880
and was very helpful
for them, so...
487
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,119
>>Chris: Yeah, because
it's gotta go both ways.
488
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,119
>>Barbara: Has to go
both ways.
489
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,599
Like the video that
I showed yesterday
490
00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:30,599
of the woman who the--
Patricia and the caregiver
491
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:32,240
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: who was--
492
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,519
when she noticed
the baby's smile,
493
00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:37,000
she did like this,
and when she was...
494
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,440
smelling...
[laughs]
495
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,279
she allowed Patricia
to touch her mouth.
496
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:44,559
And so...
497
00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:45,880
>>Matt: To touch
those emotions.
498
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,759
>>Barbara: To touch, right.
Exactly.
499
00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:51,359
>>Chris: Or acknowledge them
and just that I see you smiling.
500
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,759
I thought that
was so beautiful.
501
00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:53,680
>>Barbara: Exactly.
Yeah.
502
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,640
>>Chris: You know, Matt--
503
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,319
there's this thing that I...
504
00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:59,200
videotaped of Matt
a long time ago,
505
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,759
and it's funny as a side note,
you know,
506
00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:04,200
you've talked about how you've
watched some of these videos
507
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,880
so many times, so...
508
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,519
Matt and I--
509
00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:07,960
and it's probably
torture for Matt
510
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,839
[laughter]
because he's in the video but...
511
00:25:10,839 --> 00:25:13,079
we've watched it
so many times, you know
512
00:25:13,079 --> 00:25:16,079
and it's the same thing.
You see something new...
513
00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:17,000
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chsris: ...all the time.
514
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,359
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
515
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,640
>>Chris: But Matt's working
with our our friend Jarvis.
516
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,359
And I just think it's this most
beautiful moment where...
517
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,720
there's some place
that Jarvis hasn't been...
518
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,440
And they're exploring drums.
519
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,759
And there's
a moment where...
520
00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:35,880
Matt taps on this drum...
521
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,160
and it startles Jarvis.
522
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,240
And Matt just goes...
523
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,920
'It's OK, you're scared.'
524
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,279
You know?
And it's just like...
525
00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:46,759
'Wow!'
You know?
526
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:48,319
I mean, that's exactly...
527
00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:51,880
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah,.
>>Chris: What you should do.
528
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,119
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: And I just feel like...
529
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,640
>>Matt: What that
makes me think...
530
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,119
of a...
531
00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,240
a story of shared
emotion
532
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,160
with him that
I think was a...
533
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,240
a moment
where I learned...
534
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,279
a lesson from a student.
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
535
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:07,039
>>Matt: And it...
536
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:09,359
it was he was
supposed to go home.
537
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,279
You know, he was at Texas
School for the Blind
538
00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:12,319
-a residential school-
539
00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:14,720
so knowing when he goes
home on the weekend
540
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,839
was like the most
important information...
541
00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:17,440
>>Barbara: Yeah.
542
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,880
'When am I going to go
see my mom again?'
543
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,640
And occasionally it wasn't
a regular schedule.
544
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,359
You know, holidays
would happen...
545
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,240
the pattern would
be broken, so...
546
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,519
It was always a topic
of discussion.
547
00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:32,319
And so there was
one week where...
548
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:34,759
we had told him all week
he was going home.
549
00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:36,160
And then at the
end of the week
550
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,160
I went to a training--
I was out on that Friday--
551
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,359
and having told him
he was going to go home
552
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,680
all week on Friday...
553
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,319
and then at the
end of the day...
554
00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:47,400
he got to his dormitory...
555
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,839
and discovered that
he wasn't going home.
556
00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:51,000
>>Barbara: Yeah.
557
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,559
>>Matt: And they...
>>Barbara: Oh, boy.
558
00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:54,480
the dorm staff-- I know!
>>Barbara: Oh, boy!
559
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,960
[sympathetic laugh]
Boy.
560
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,519
>>Matt: Obviously this was
distressing to Jarvis
561
00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:03,440
and so his dorm staff
was trying to help him
562
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,359
and talk to him
about it
563
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,319
and explain what
had happened and...
564
00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:10,319
to varying degrees
of success.
565
00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:12,759
You know, they weren't
sure the language
566
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:14,559
that he would understand
in that context,
567
00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:18,240
and they said, 'Well, call Matt
and see if he has any ideas.'
568
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,920
And they called and I said,
'Well, I'm about to come back
569
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,920
to the school, so let me come
in and say-- talk to him.'
570
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,759
And I remember approaching
him thinking,
571
00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:32,319
'I have no idea what I can
say to explain this.'
572
00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:34,079
And...
573
00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:37,799
But when he, you know,
I said hello and who I was,
574
00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:42,319
and he just grabbed me
and hugged me and cried.
575
00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:45,160
And I just I didn't--
at that point wasn't thinking
576
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,960
about what I could do
other than hug him.
577
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,000
And we-- I remember we kind
of rocked together
578
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,119
for a little bit
and I thought,
579
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,559
'Well, this is what
I can do right
580
00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:57,880
to be with him
and this feeling.'
581
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,200
And then,
you know...
582
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,480
I don't know how
long that lasted
583
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,079
but a little while,
but I remember then...
584
00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:05,200
...signing, 'Sorry.'
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
585
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,960
>>Matt: While we were
still in that embrace.
586
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,079
>>Barbara: Mm hmm.
587
00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:10,839
>>Matt: And...
588
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,319
It just it felt nice,
I remember it feeling nice,
589
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:15,839
and Jarvis
calmed down
590
00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:18,240
and without a lot
of other discussion
591
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,680
he just kind of proceeded
through his weekend
592
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,279
and all was...
OK.
593
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:25,279
But I did notice
that after that
594
00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:29,000
any time there was
an unexpected break
595
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,680
or a mistake that
someone had made
596
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,839
in not being able
to explain it to him
597
00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:36,200
that they could
sign 'sorry.'
598
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,359
>>Barbara: Oh!
599
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,359
>>Matt: And that felt like
the concept was...
600
00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:41,279
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: ...clear.
601
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:44,319
And therefore, he...
602
00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:45,599
he had the piece
of information
603
00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:47,759
that he needed
to forgive maybe.
604
00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:53,440
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah,
that's a great story.
605
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,400
>>Matt: He was a great teacher.
Wasn't he, Chris?
606
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,559
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
>>Chris: Yeah.
607
00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:00,880
Big time.
>>Barbara: Big time.
608
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:07,640
It's the word at the very
same time that he's feeling it.
609
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:08,759
>>Matt: 'Oh, I heard
you say that.'
610
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:11,559
>>Barbara: Yeah, that...
611
00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:16,279
Carol Crook had the...
612
00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:18,519
she was a teacher
at Perkins...
613
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:20,920
and I admired
her so much,
614
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,839
and she wrote in...
615
00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:25,240
'Remarkable Conversation'
she said...
616
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,039
the time to sign
or say a word...
617
00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:33,440
is the moment
when you... feel...
618
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,720
she might
have said 'think'
619
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,279
but I guess
I might say 'feel'--
620
00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:40,799
feel that the child has
that word in their mind
621
00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:42,519
or in their heart.
622
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:47,759
I mean, he was feeling that
at the moment that maybe,
623
00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:51,319
you know, so strongly
and somehow it was--
624
00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:54,279
it's like a body memory
of that time
625
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:58,240
and then the safety
and then the word
626
00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:59,839
all at the same time,
you know.
627
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:02,440
>>Matt: So it's like
all those emotions
628
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,960
working with the kind
of cognitive aspect, right?
629
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:07,680
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: Like, together?
630
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,160
>>Barbara: Yeah.
631
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,480
I mean, for me, also
part of my...
632
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,039
journey in this field
has been...
633
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:19,640
I mean, it's just been amazing
over many years.
634
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,200
And I have to say
I'm not a full-time teacher.
635
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,599
I have never been-
except for the early years-
636
00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:27,680
a full-time teacher.
637
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,160
But I've had the
opportunity to meet...
638
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,319
many, many Deafblind...
639
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:33,680
children...
640
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,640
and adults and...
641
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,880
teachers and...
642
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,720
one of the...
643
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,359
things that I've had
to learn myself is that...
644
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:51,079
I have to be able
to hold those feelings
645
00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:54,000
in myself in order
to acknowledge them
646
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,079
in other...
647
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:55,960
in others.
648
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,759
>>Chris: That also reminds me
of a story that I've...
649
00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:05,400
constantly reminded of...
--that Jarvis story--
650
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,559
of Ray...
651
00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:11,799
--a little guy that I used
to work with...
652
00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:14,279
I think he came to the school
when he was like five
653
00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:17,400
you know, which is
really, really young.
654
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,640
And it was
an exceptional...
655
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,039
sort of thing that
he came that early.
656
00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:29,119
But he was... really had
a lot of trouble, he...
657
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:32,279
didn't understand where
he was at, and of course...
658
00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:34,519
you know, was just
disattached from his mom
659
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:38,799
and stuff like that
at that age.
660
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:42,960
But we went on to be really
tight, really good friends,
661
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,200
you know, and grew
very close.
662
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,880
And this is a long story
and I'll make it short.
663
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,519
But one of the things that we did,
among other things,
664
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:58,000
was when we would greet
each other in the morning...
665
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,359
we would--
we would sign 'hug'--
666
00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:02,200
and he had some hearing,
he didn't have vision,
667
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,519
but he had some hearing--
and I would say 'hug.'
668
00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:07,920
And then he'd fall into me,
you know, and I'd squeeze
669
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,440
and he like, it was kind of
a rough houser or kind of guy.
670
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,839
And he would also--
he came to...
671
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:20,200
that came to be a really
nice thing to do with him
672
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,799
when he would get upset
or scared or something,
673
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:26,880
you know, is that hug thing
and a tight squeeze.
674
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,559
And he left the school
and I went to Outreach
675
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:32,759
and I lost touch
with him for...
676
00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:35,319
I don't know,
it must have been...
677
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,400
close to 10 years
I'm not really sure,
678
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,400
but something
around there.
679
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,279
And we got
a referral for him.
680
00:32:42,279 --> 00:32:44,720
And it's like,
'Oh my God, it's Ray!
681
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,119
I haven't seen
him in forever.
682
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:46,960
What happened
to him?'
683
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,559
I lost touch with him
and his mom.
684
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:52,480
And so I went to the
school where he was at
685
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,960
and he was in really
bad shape.
686
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,400
He'd just been kind of sitting
on this couch for--
687
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,400
nobody talking to him,
really for a couple of years.
688
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,480
His head was all wrapped up
in this bandage.
689
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,680
He looked like a mummy.
690
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,240
And...
691
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,319
he had-- the reason
for that was because he was
692
00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:15,960
really self-abusive, he was
banging his head a lot
693
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,119
and somebody would
get close he'd try to...
694
00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:22,640
headbutt them and stuff,
you know, it's just a really...
695
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,920
bad thing and...
So...
696
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,240
You know, I remember it was--
it's such a vivid memory--
697
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,839
but I talked to the teacher
for a little while,
698
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:33,599
like 'what's going on?'
699
00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:38,440
And he kind of told me, like,
'we just don't know what to do.'
700
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,559
You know,
we're kind--
701
00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:44,359
was implying that they
were all so scared.
702
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:47,039
And I remember going
over to this couch
703
00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:49,680
and being a little
scared myself, you know,
704
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,039
it's like, 'what's
going to happen?
705
00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:52,880
Is he going
to remember me?
706
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,440
Is he going to try
to knock me out,
707
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,759
you know, like
or whatever?'
708
00:33:55,759 --> 00:34:00,559
And I unwrapped all this bandage
around his head, you know,
709
00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:02,880
and it was just like
falling to the floor,
710
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,839
like it was just piles
of it, it seemed like.
711
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:09,559
And here's Ray
standing in front of me
712
00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:11,840
and instead of being
this tall he's, you know...
713
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,320
like close to six feet and...
714
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,960
he's, like, got facial hair
and stuff, you know, and...
715
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,480
[laughter]
716
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,599
And so it's like,
'Wow, you know, and-'
717
00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:24,000
>>Barbara: Wow.
718
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,960
>>Chris: This crowd had
gathered around us
719
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,320
like the call went out
down the hall,
720
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,719
like 'the guy
from Austin's here...'
721
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,880
[laughter]
722
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,400
like, 'what's going to happen?
Let's go check it out.'
723
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,280
>>Barbara: Oh boy.
724
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,679
>>Chris: And so I'm
standing there
725
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:40,039
and there's the circle
around us, you know.
726
00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:42,199
And I didn't quite really
realize that I was
727
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,039
really trying to focus
on Ray, and I just had
728
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:48,880
his hands in mine and we
were kind of doing some,
729
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,159
you know, little hand games
or something, you know,
730
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:52,119
just to say hi.
731
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:55,760
And I remember,
though, that I--
732
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,800
something made me
go 'hug,' you know,
733
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,760
and giving this hug and...
734
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,519
kind of tentatively like,
is he going to headbutt me
735
00:35:03,519 --> 00:35:05,199
if I do this, but...
736
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:09,000
bring him close
to me and...
737
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,280
And then the teacher,
something, you know, it's--
738
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,880
some stuff happened and
the teacher said something,
739
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,400
and I turned
to look at her...
740
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,719
and this crowd
sort of this--
741
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,440
all I can say, is sort of this
like gasp or something.
742
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,559
It's not quite
the way it was,
743
00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:25,679
but something...
744
00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:27,880
I sensed something
in the crowd.
745
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,280
And I look back and here
after all these years,
746
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,920
Ray was signing 'hug'
to me, you know.
747
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,000
Same kind of thing.
It was like that.
748
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,679
To me, it was not
only like, 'I remember you
749
00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:43,280
and I remember this thing
that we did
750
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,840
and that it was
a comfort to me.'
751
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,800
And it was-- but it
was also like,
752
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,920
'Hey, everybody,
I'm somebody.'
753
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:51,960
You know...
>>Barbara: Mm hmm!
754
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,400
Like 'I'm somebody
in the world.
755
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,239
All these people who...
756
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,320
haven't known that.'
757
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:58,599
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: You know?
758
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:01,639
>>Barbara: 'I'm a person.'
>>Chris: 'I'm a person and...
759
00:36:01,639 --> 00:36:02,440
>>Barbara: Human.
760
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,760
>>Chris: 'I remember this guy
from 10 years ago.
761
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,360
I remember what
we did and...
762
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,239
>>Barbara: Wow.
763
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:11,400
>>Chris: You know,
there's just so much
764
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,679
in that simple
gesture it seems.
765
00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:17,159
>>Barbara: Did you know
at all beforehand
766
00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:19,880
that he had recognized you
before you did that?
767
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,440
>>Chris: I still did not.
>>Barbara: You still didn't.
768
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,159
>>Chris: That was my
epiphany to myself.
769
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:24,360
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
770
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,400
>>Chris: I was just like...
>>Barbara: Yeah.
771
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,199
>>Chris: Wow.
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
772
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:32,880
>>Chris: I absolutely didn't.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
773
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,920
Wow, so that was the moment
when he did this.
774
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,679
>>Chris: Yeah....
Yeah...
775
00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:41,440
Yeah.
776
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:42,719
>>Barbara: Wow.
777
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,039
>>Matt: That just makes
me think how rooted
778
00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:46,760
memory is in emotion.
779
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:47,880
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
780
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,199
>>Chris: I think that's the point
I was trying to make.
781
00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:53,440
>>Barbara: Which reminds
me of Gunnar Vega's...
782
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,920
notion of bodily
emotional traces.
783
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,679
And yeah, I think that
confirms that in a way.
784
00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:03,920
That's probably
the source of memory.
785
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,840
>>Chris: Yeah.
786
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,159
>>Barbara: And now
I'm thinking that...
787
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:12,000
in a way...
788
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,360
teachers are taught to look
forward all the time.
789
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,800
I think I was as a teacher,
you have a plan,
790
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,840
you have like goals,
you have this...
791
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,599
sort of forward-looking thing.
792
00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:27,760
And...
793
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,239
That's fine...
794
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,559
But we also have
to look backwards
795
00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:35,039
and remember
things like...
796
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,239
have memory
for what has happened.
797
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,360
And I believe
that the children...
798
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,280
and adults--
that everyone has memories,
799
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,760
sometimes they don't have
words attached, but...
800
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:54,400
And that that kind
of a view is a way
801
00:37:54,400 --> 00:38:00,880
of thinking about many things
in Deafblind education.
802
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,800
Like, I can say this
because I'm so old,
803
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,639
but I have all these memories
of sort of little milestones
804
00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:12,559
and children have memories of--
that are in their bodies.
805
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:21,320
So the way we touch and
the way we interact with them...
806
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,039
is so important.
807
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:28,079
And memory is important,
which is why I think
808
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:32,599
there are such things
as memory books
809
00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:34,159
in the field
of Deafblindness,
810
00:38:34,159 --> 00:38:38,760
so there are concrete things
to make the memories.
811
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,760
And I also-- one of the first
signs that I like to teach--
812
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,119
Teach!
[laughter]
813
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:48,480
--that I like to expose
a child to a lot is...
814
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,000
'Remember.'
'Remember you and me?
815
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,360
Yesterday?
816
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,159
We did this,' you know?
Like...
817
00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:59,440
So to come in
every day with...
818
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,239
'How was yesterday?'
And then 'How...
819
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:03,960
How might
tomorrow be?
820
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,360
You know, if given that so...
821
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,199
Before the calendar,
is the memory.
822
00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:10,480
[laugh]
823
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,519
You, know, like...
>>Chris: Yeah.
824
00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:17,559
I'm so glad you said that
because I...
825
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,360
that was an epiphany for me.
>>Barbara: Yeah, I could tell.
826
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,559
>>Chris: Yesterday when
you talked about that.
827
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:22,880
>>Barbara: Oh!
828
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,000
>>Chris: I was like,
of course, you know,
829
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,400
Would you talk a little bit
more about-- I mean--
830
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,400
go further on that...
831
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,320
thought of 'You have to have
the memory before you...'
832
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,599
>>Barbara: I guess
it's just that...
833
00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:43,840
every life has its developmental
arc and that you can't...
834
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,719
you can only
live it forward, but...
835
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,000
you...
[laughs]
836
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,320
everybody lives...
837
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,079
also with memories
wherever they are, you know.
838
00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:57,760
And...
839
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,360
Just realizing
that makes me...
840
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,079
respect the children's arc.
841
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:05,360
So even...
842
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,199
Let's just say that
even a child who...
843
00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:14,440
only lives for...
a few years...
844
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:20,320
their life still has--
has an arc to it and so...
845
00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:31,679
Well, that's where-- that's where
I'm going now but...
846
00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:34,920
Ask that question
again because...
847
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,039
Could I say more
about memory?
848
00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:38,559
>>Chris: It was--
It was...
849
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:43,079
Just this idea that you
can't really teach without...
850
00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:45,519
memories.
You know, there's not...
851
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:48,719
There's newness,
but it has to be...
852
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:49,519
>>Barbara: Yeah.
853
00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:53,159
>>Chris: Brought from this
experience or this memory
854
00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:56,039
that it's built upon
almost, you know?
855
00:40:56,039 --> 00:40:57,800
>>Barbara: Yeah, that's
a good way of saying it.
856
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,840
[laughs] Better than...
>>Chris: No!
857
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:00,960
[crosstalk]
>>Matt: I remember you...
858
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,360
making the comment that memory
comes before anticipation?
859
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:05,079
>>Barbara: Yeah.
860
00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:07,360
>>Matt: Can you explain what
you mean when you say
861
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,199
memory comes
before anticipation.
862
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:12,800
>>Barbara: Well, I guess
they go together, but...
863
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,440
Now I'm relating it to...
864
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,440
what I heard...
865
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,679
Jan Van Dijk say
one time that...
866
00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:25,360
calendars, for example, are...
867
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,719
meant to be...
868
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,519
for conversation.
[laughs]
869
00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:31,840
They aren't just
the schedule.
870
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,119
>>Matt: What?!
[Laughter]
871
00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:34,519
>>Chris: Yeah, I mean,
that's amazing!
872
00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:35,800
[laughter]
Herasy!
873
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,599
[laughter]
874
00:41:38,599 --> 00:41:42,119
>>Barbara: So that's where
my mind went with that.
875
00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:44,880
And so...
876
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,280
And they also have
to do with relationship.
877
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,559
I mean, it matters who...
878
00:41:49,559 --> 00:41:53,280
who is...
who is with...
879
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,960
[laughs] a person
at a given time.
880
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,400
I mean, your story
about Ray.
881
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,199
Like, there you were
and you--
882
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:02,679
he had that
memory and...
883
00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:06,760
maybe then the anticipation
and just the fact that...
884
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,480
that all those
people saw that.
885
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,639
You know, maybe...
then...
886
00:42:11,639 --> 00:42:13,440
'Oh, he has a memory.'
887
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,519
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Guess what?
888
00:42:14,519 --> 00:42:16,480
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: So maybe...
889
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,199
>>Chris: There's a person
under those bandages.
890
00:42:18,199 --> 00:42:21,360
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
Right.
891
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,400
>>Matt: Well, I know
I've heard you talk
892
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:23,639
about how
important it is
893
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:24,679
and you mentioned...
894
00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:27,159
earlier about feeling safe.
895
00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:28,679
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: In order to learn...
896
00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:29,639
...and calm.
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
897
00:42:29,639 --> 00:42:33,239
>>Matt: And so if we have those
memories of connection...
898
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:33,800
>>Barbara: Yeah.
899
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,480
Matt: We can reflect
and then...
900
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,039
out of that reflection
901
00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:41,639
comes our feeling of safety
and security and trust.
902
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,760
And then maybe we can
start to be brave enough
903
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,639
to look forward and
start to anticipate
904
00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:51,239
without it being
overwhelming, without...
905
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,360
>>Barbara: Exactly!
>>Matt: ...the unknown.
906
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,719
>>Chris: Sometimes you look
forward and it's scary sometimes.
907
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,960
>>Barbara: It's scary.
It's very scary.
908
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,199
It can be really.
909
00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:02,840
>>Chris: It can be
exciting and fun too,
910
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,719
but sometimes
it's yeah.
911
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:05,599
>>Barbara: Yeah.
912
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:08,360
>>Chris: Especially if you
don't have a conception
913
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,320
of what might happen,
you know?
914
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,199
>>Barbara: And that
all sort of...
915
00:43:13,199 --> 00:43:15,559
converges in the
present moment.
916
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:16,960
[laughs]
917
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,639
You know, in the sense
of just like being present.
918
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:22,519
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Being present for...
919
00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:25,119
the child or the adult...
920
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:27,840
or, I mean, all being
present with each other
921
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,559
in a way that...
Yeah.
922
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,440
Yeah.
So...
923
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,760
If-- and I'm struck
by the fact that,
924
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,960
yes, safety and
belonging and...
925
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,840
generosity-- all the forms
of the circle of courage.
926
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,760
You know, looking at...
>>Chris: Yeah.
927
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:54,360
>>Barbara: What are the values
that guide us? I mean...
928
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,199
And....
929
00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:59,039
Yeah.
930
00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:01,400
>>Matt: I was going to ask,
can you can you talk briefly
931
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,199
about what the
circle of courage is...
932
00:44:04,199 --> 00:44:06,840
and how you
came to discover it...
933
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,039
and why you think
it's helpful...
934
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:13,280
for when thinking about how
to support the learning
935
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,559
or the development
of Deafblind kids?
936
00:44:16,559 --> 00:44:23,119
>>Barbara: Yeah, like
I said in the training...
937
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:27,559
I was originally introduced
to it in Vermont by...
938
00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:29,119
by Larry Brendtro
939
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:33,840
who came to do a workshop
in Vermont about it and...
940
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:39,519
I mean, you happen to be
interested in it, too. [laughs]
941
00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:42,840
So... that made
me so happy.
942
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:49,039
And I was just
so struck by the...
943
00:44:49,039 --> 00:44:51,599
--his whole presentation--
but by the wheel
944
00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:53,760
of the circle
of courage and...
945
00:44:53,760 --> 00:45:00,719
how the elements of that
make up a good life and...
946
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,679
and what, you know--
947
00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:06,000
and I'm forgetting
what his terms are,
948
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:14,960
but I made an adaptation
for Deafblindness.
949
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,719
He has four.
And so help me...
950
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,400
>>Matt: I think 'mastery' is one.
>>Barbara: 'Mastery.'
951
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,400
>>Matt: There's the--
I think he referred to
952
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:28,599
as the 'spirit of mastery'
and the 'spirit of generosity'
953
00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:32,599
the 'spirit of independence'
and...
954
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:33,880
>>Chris: Courage.
>>Barbara: 'Belonging.'
955
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,280
>>Matt: And 'belonging.'
>>Chris: 'Belonging.'
956
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,280
>>Matt: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
957
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:37,559
'Belonging.'
>>Matt: The 'spirit of belonging.'
958
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:39,639
[crosstalk]
959
00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:43,920
>>Barbara: And I mean both
of your stories speak to...
960
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,480
all those things.
961
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,239
And most maybe
especially belonging,
962
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,679
which might
be the safety.
963
00:45:50,679 --> 00:45:51,400
>>Chris: Yeah.
964
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,239
>>Barbara: Similar to the
safety if we're not alone.
965
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:55,199
[laughs]
966
00:45:55,199 --> 00:45:56,280
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: But...
967
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:01,719
maybe goes up,
you know, goes with it.
968
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,199
And the one I added
was 'understanding.'
969
00:46:05,199 --> 00:46:13,440
Meaning some sense of how
the world around me works.
970
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,519
Which can't be
taken for granted...
971
00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:19,239
by somebody
who has...
972
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,119
impaired vision
and hearing because...
973
00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:26,840
we develop our concepts--
we who can see and hear--
974
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,199
[laughs] less and less all
the time, I might add--
975
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:32,440
[laughter]
976
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,400
We who can see
and hear can...
977
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,400
can learn about how
the world works
978
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,519
just by watching
and listening.
979
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,639
And kids do.
[laughs]
980
00:46:43,639 --> 00:46:48,599
So we need to be
mindful of how...
981
00:46:48,599 --> 00:46:50,719
you know,
how they...
982
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,920
what they see...
[laughs] and hear.
983
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,159
[laughs]
984
00:46:54,159 --> 00:46:56,079
And that, I mean,
I guess that piece--
985
00:46:56,079 --> 00:46:57,920
I'm just coming
to this right now--
986
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,840
That piece is really
pretty important.
987
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,760
We need to be mindful
of what they see and hear.
988
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,840
And then with the child
who's Deafblind
989
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,960
sometimes the only avenue--
if they're totally Deafblind--
990
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,000
--is touch.
>>Matt: Yeah.
991
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,679
>>Barbara: And here's where I...
992
00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:19,079
remember and remind people
that Helen Keller had...
993
00:47:19,079 --> 00:47:23,599
two years before she went
totally Deafblind and so...
994
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:27,159
The amount that a child
learns in two years is...
995
00:47:27,159 --> 00:47:29,039
I'm sure...
you're aware of it.
996
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:30,440
>>Matt: As a father, yeah.
997
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,679
>>Barbara: Yeah!
[laughs] Totally, right?
998
00:47:32,679 --> 00:47:34,360
>>Matt: All he's learned
that I didn't teach him.
999
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,320
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1000
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,559
>>Matt: And there
was no-- no plan.
1001
00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:39,440
I didn't have...
1002
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,280
IEP goals set out...
>>Barbara: No, right.
1003
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,440
>>Matt: But...
1004
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,360
>>Chris: Concept
of Spider-Man...
1005
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:45,360
[laughter]
1006
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,159
>>Matt: It came to him
incidentally, that's for sure.
1007
00:47:48,159 --> 00:47:49,920
>>Barbara: And pirates. [laugh]
>>Matt: [indiscernible]
1008
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,480
Yeah, absolutely.
1009
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,960
So all that
understanding...
1010
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,960
you know, some kids just get
with vision and hearing.
1011
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,119
>>Barbara: Right.
>>Chris: Yeah.
1012
00:47:58,119 --> 00:48:00,000
>>Barbara: Right.
>>Chris: It's a big, big world.
1013
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:00,960
Big, goofy world.
1014
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,679
>>Barbara: It's a big,
goofy world.
1015
00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:04,119
[laughs]
1016
00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:05,920
>>Chris: You, Barbara,
talked about--
1017
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,880
and you've
been talking
1018
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,920
a lot this few days
about 'a-ha moments.'
1019
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,920
And there was one story
that you told that I just love,
1020
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,679
and...
1021
00:48:17,679 --> 00:48:19,519
I wonder if you would
kinda tell it again
1022
00:48:19,519 --> 00:48:21,400
and it was...
1023
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,719
about when you really
started thinking about...
1024
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,800
touch and you said
that you had...
1025
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,199
stopped teaching
for a while
1026
00:48:29,199 --> 00:48:32,000
and were really
working as a potter
1027
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,199
and you came back...
to teach again.
1028
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:38,079
And I just wonder if you
would talk about that.
1029
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:41,719
>>Barbara: Yeah, I just
talked about that...
1030
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,360
yesterday, I guess,
and...
1031
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,519
It was interesting
because I left teaching
1032
00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:52,519
to move back to Vermont
because I love Vermont
1033
00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:56,440
and I'd been connected
with it for many years
1034
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,119
and had already...
1035
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:03,360
had some land there and
wanted to be back where I...
1036
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,480
felt really comfortable.
1037
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,719
And I...
1038
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:12,440
I left and I had taken
a lot of pottery lessons,
1039
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,559
which I totally enjoyed.
1040
00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:16,480
And gotten
pretty good at it.
1041
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,119
And so when
I got back
1042
00:49:18,119 --> 00:49:21,440
I decided to keep
going with pottery
1043
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:26,679
and... I started making
pots and selling them
1044
00:49:26,679 --> 00:49:29,920
and making
a living that way.
1045
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,719
But mainly I spent hours and
hours and hours throwing pots.
1046
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:40,159
And I realized that my hands
got quite sensitive...
1047
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:43,000
in that way-- I mean, I think
I've always had sensitive hands--
1048
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,679
but anyway...
1049
00:49:44,679 --> 00:49:48,639
And so then
I went back to...
1050
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:51,800
Boston to do something
completely different, actually.
1051
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,400
[laughs]
And then...
1052
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,360
Perkins offered
me a job again.
1053
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,199
And so I went back
to Perkins and I...
1054
00:49:58,199 --> 00:50:04,800
was teaching, at that time,
teenagers and they had...
1055
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,320
become totally
proficient at...
1056
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,400
following sign language
with their hands.
1057
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,519
And so-- and the class
that I taught was three...
1058
00:50:16,519 --> 00:50:21,480
teenagers who were
all tactile signers.
1059
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,920
So I thought I was going
to be a worse teacher
1060
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,079
because I hadn't been
there for all those years--
1061
00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:28,440
five years-- and I didn't
really know...
1062
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:29,679
>>Chris: 'Could I ride
the bike again?'
1063
00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:32,480
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
1064
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,159
And...
1065
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:39,880
I actually felt like I knew
I was better.
1066
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,960
And it was because of the
sensitivity in my hands.
1067
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,840
So somehow that...
1068
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:54,079
coming together was
what led to the eventual...
1069
00:50:54,079 --> 00:50:56,039
article that
I wrote about...
1070
00:50:56,039 --> 00:50:59,079
talking the language
of the hands to the hands.
1071
00:50:59,079 --> 00:51:04,360
>>Chris: That's an amazing
sort of journey to that...
1072
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:05,400
I don't know
what you call it--
1073
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:10,599
understanding like that
deeper understanding of...
1074
00:51:10,599 --> 00:51:12,000
what all this means.
1075
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,000
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Chris: That's just wow.
1076
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,119
>>Matt: I know you
talked to us a little bit
1077
00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:19,599
about how
that experience...
1078
00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:22,559
and that thinking
about touch
1079
00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:28,199
and how it provided
you extra insight...
1080
00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:31,039
led you to think
differently about the touch
1081
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:33,599
of your students and
how they used touch
1082
00:51:33,599 --> 00:51:37,400
to learn and the various
ways they use touch.
1083
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,480
Can you kinda describe
that to us?
1084
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:44,079
>>Barbara: Hmmm.
1085
00:51:44,079 --> 00:51:45,679
>>Chris: [laughs]
1086
00:51:45,679 --> 00:51:48,000
You talk about me asking
big questions, right?
1087
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,400
[laughter]
[crosstalk]
1088
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,440
>>Matt: How about
your life's work?
1089
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:56,199
[laughter]
[crosstalk]
1090
00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:59,239
What I was
getting at is...
1091
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,400
you told the story
yesterday about...
1092
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,559
touch as a tool.
1093
00:52:04,559 --> 00:52:06,199
And how you felt
like it was important
1094
00:52:06,199 --> 00:52:08,039
to get people
to understand that...
1095
00:52:08,039 --> 00:52:11,599
they're using touch
more than a tool.
1096
00:52:11,599 --> 00:52:13,360
>>Barbara: They're using
their hands more than a tool.
1097
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:14,800
>>Matt: Their hands!
I'm sorry.
1098
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,199
>>Barbara: I was talking
about hands as a tool.
1099
00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:20,800
Because I was trying
to explain how important
1100
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,639
touch was for blind people
and for Deafblind people.
1101
00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:29,119
And I had developed
such respect for the...
1102
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:33,239
students' hands that I could
no longer control them.
1103
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,960
And so I was
trying to figure out
1104
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,920
how to explain
to someone who...
1105
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,519
did the...
1106
00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:43,239
controlling of the
hands, which...
1107
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,480
I was taught when
I was in school
1108
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,679
you know, like this is
how you get a blind child
1109
00:52:49,679 --> 00:52:50,920
to do something.
1110
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:56,079
You take their hand and
you put it on the...
1111
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,320
...mug. [laughs]
>>Chris: Yeah.
1112
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,400
Feel that mug.
>>Barbara: Yeah, feel that mug.
1113
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,039
[laughter]
[crosstalk]
1114
00:53:03,039 --> 00:53:05,679
>>Barbara: Pick that up.
Pick that up.
1115
00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:09,000
And then all of a sudden
I realized that, 'Oh, I get it.'
1116
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,159
I mean, when we
have vision we...
1117
00:53:13,159 --> 00:53:15,840
use our hands mostly--
1118
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,280
most people use
their hands mostly--
1119
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,719
under the direction
of their eye,
1120
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,880
so it's like
a tool that...
1121
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,159
I mean, that's my...
conceptualization of it, but...
1122
00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:29,360
many people are so
unaware of their hands
1123
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,519
that it's just they're
always under the guidance
1124
00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:33,079
of their...
sight.
1125
00:53:33,079 --> 00:53:34,960
>>Matt: Sight first then...
>>Barbara: Sight first...
1126
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,440
and then...
so... but...
1127
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,079
That's not what they
need to be used for
1128
00:53:42,079 --> 00:53:45,360
for a person
who's blind or...
1129
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,400
Deafblind or...
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
1130
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:48,599
>>Barbara: ...vision impaired.
1131
00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:49,719
You know, like...
[laughs]
1132
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,360
They have to be...
1133
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:52,880
eyes too.
1134
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,280
And they have
to be... ears.
1135
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,679
They have to hear
sound sometimes
1136
00:53:57,679 --> 00:54:01,000
with their hands and
then they have to...
1137
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:02,519
speak with their hands.
1138
00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:05,039
Maybe sign language, you know.
>>Chris: Yeah.
1139
00:54:05,039 --> 00:54:06,639
>>Matt: Emote.
>>Barbara: Emote.
1140
00:54:06,639 --> 00:54:08,400
>>Matt: Like you were
saying earlier, right?
1141
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:09,719
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
1142
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,920
Oh, that's a whole thing.
Like feeling.
1143
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,679
>>Matt: Feeling.
1144
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:14,400
>>Barbara: Yeah, feeling
with your hands.
1145
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:15,360
Oh, that's--
>>Chris: Yeah.
1146
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,119
>>Barbara: That's one
I didn't put on the list.
1147
00:54:17,119 --> 00:54:19,559
So that's up to you guys.
>>Matt: OK!
1148
00:54:19,559 --> 00:54:20,760
[laughter]
1149
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,519
>>Chris: And that kind
of goes to Gunnar
1150
00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:23,639
you know, I watch
those videos how he's...
1151
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:26,199
>>Barbara: Exactly!
Exactly!
1152
00:54:26,199 --> 00:54:27,599
Right, right.
1153
00:54:27,599 --> 00:54:30,400
>>Chris: You see--
you can see it...
1154
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,960
when you're watching it.
I can't really imagine what it...
1155
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,360
feels like, though.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1156
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,559
>>Chris: You know, I mean,
that must be so...
1157
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:38,000
...powerful.
1158
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,280
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1159
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,079
And then he has this gesture
that he taught me about.
1160
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:43,599
When you're--
1161
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:45,519
talk about speaking
and listening--
1162
00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:47,800
when you're
doing tactile sign
1163
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,840
like if you're signing
with someone
1164
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:51,679
you know, and you're
signing and then...
1165
00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:53,599
I'm done with my
turn so...
1166
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:55,519
Has he showed you that?
>>Matt: I've seen him do it.
1167
00:54:55,519 --> 00:54:57,800
>>Barbara: And so...
this is like...
1168
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,360
a communication that's
so delicate and it's like...
1169
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:02,679
Now it's your turn.
1170
00:55:02,679 --> 00:55:05,559
And I'm listening.
And then...
1171
00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:08,000
So this is like--
Yeah, yeah.
1172
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:09,920
>>Matt: Now I'm listening.
>>Barbara: Relax your hands.
1173
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:11,760
>>Barbara: Yeah,
that's different.
1174
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:18,000
[laughter]
[crosstalk]
1175
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,639
>>Barbara: Yeah.
So, yeah.
1176
00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:26,239
I remember there was somebody
in the training yesterday
1177
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,599
who is a massage
therapist, and...
1178
00:55:28,599 --> 00:55:29,480
>>Matt: Yeah.
1179
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,039
>>Barbara: I'm pretty sure he
probably has a good sensitivity
1180
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:34,880
with children because...
1181
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,760
he's had that
sort of practice.
1182
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:39,039
>>Chris: He does.
We've seen it.
1183
00:55:39,039 --> 00:55:40,199
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1184
00:55:40,199 --> 00:55:42,639
>>Chris: He's pretty awesome.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1185
00:55:42,639 --> 00:55:44,599
>>Matt: We started
our discussion--
1186
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:46,360
You started
our discussion...
1187
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:47,559
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1188
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:50,239
>>Matt: ...about the
value of stories...
1189
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:51,840
>>Barbara: Yeah.
>>Matt: That you learned from...
1190
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,760
from your students.
1191
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,480
Are there any...
1192
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,320
are there any other
ones that come to mind
1193
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,159
or that you want
to share with us...
1194
00:56:01,159 --> 00:56:03,119
that you think are
important lessons
1195
00:56:03,119 --> 00:56:06,920
for other people to know...
to hear about or to think about?
1196
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:11,199
>>Barbara: One of my goals
in coming here was to...
1197
00:56:11,199 --> 00:56:13,360
empower...
1198
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,400
people here to...
1199
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,480
keep gathering stories.
1200
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,199
And so...
1201
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,360
I could keep telling
stories all day.
1202
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,320
[laughs]
1203
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:28,199
But...
1204
00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:30,519
Just to have that...
1205
00:56:30,519 --> 00:56:33,880
confidence that
we all have stories
1206
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:38,239
and that every
teacher has stories.
1207
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,320
And...
1208
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:47,440
Yeah, I'll tell that story
about a time when...
1209
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,199
when I was...
1210
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,800
asked to consult about
a young woman who...
1211
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,719
was blind and...
1212
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,079
she actually had
some hearing, but...
1213
00:56:59,079 --> 00:57:02,800
they were worried at the school
that her hearing was...
1214
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,480
declining because she
had stopped speaking.
1215
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,119
And so...
1216
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:09,480
When I went
to the school...
1217
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,760
I asked to observe
her all day.
1218
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,000
And I did.
And...
1219
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:19,400
it was true, she barely said
a word the whole entire day.
1220
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,079
And...
1221
00:57:22,079 --> 00:57:25,199
I wouldn't say she was
particularly oppositional,
1222
00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:27,760
she just was mute.
1223
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,079
And...
And she was blind.
1224
00:57:31,079 --> 00:57:35,960
And at the end of the day,
we had a meeting and the staff...
1225
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:37,920
were sitting
around a big table
1226
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:42,800
and there was a young
woman I hadn't met there.
1227
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,039
And...
1228
00:57:44,039 --> 00:57:46,199
I just asked to go
around the table
1229
00:57:46,199 --> 00:57:48,320
and hear
from everybody...
1230
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,000
what their observation
of the student had been.
1231
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,960
And they all went
around and they all said,
1232
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,559
'She's mute.
She's mute.
1233
00:57:55,559 --> 00:57:58,639
She isn't speaking.
She isn't speaking.'
1234
00:57:58,639 --> 00:58:01,239
And...
1235
00:58:01,239 --> 00:58:04,039
And then I got to the last
person whom I hadn't met,
1236
00:58:04,039 --> 00:58:09,159
and it was a young woman
that was about the age of...
1237
00:58:09,159 --> 00:58:11,320
the student,
the girl.
1238
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,480
And I said, 'So are you...
1239
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,719
--What is your experience?
Is she...
1240
00:58:16,719 --> 00:58:18,719
Does she talk
with you?' And...
1241
00:58:18,719 --> 00:58:21,960
She said, 'Yeah, she talks
all the time.'
1242
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,440
And I said, 'Oh, what...
What does she talk about?'
1243
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,760
And...
1244
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,679
And she said,
'Oh, she talks about...
1245
00:58:28,679 --> 00:58:31,199
makeup and
she talks about...
1246
00:58:31,199 --> 00:58:34,239
boys and she
talks about music
1247
00:58:34,239 --> 00:58:36,599
and she talks
about clothes.'
1248
00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:38,119
And I said, 'Oh!
1249
00:58:38,119 --> 00:58:40,159
And what do you
talk to her about?'
1250
00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:43,159
'Oh, I tell her
about my boyfriend
1251
00:58:43,159 --> 00:58:46,000
and I tell her about the
music I'm listening to
1252
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,239
and I tell her about...
1253
00:58:49,239 --> 00:58:53,719
all kinds of things that are
going on in my life.'
1254
00:58:53,719 --> 00:58:56,639
And I could just see all the
other people were like,
1255
00:58:56,639 --> 00:58:59,760
'Oh... OK.'
[laughter]
1256
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,679
[laughs]
1257
00:59:01,679 --> 00:59:03,079
And...
1258
00:59:03,079 --> 00:59:05,199
'Oh she's not losing
her hearing.
1259
00:59:05,199 --> 00:59:09,239
She just hasn't found
mutual topics yet.'
1260
00:59:09,239 --> 00:59:09,760
[laughs]
>>Matt: Mm hmm.
1261
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,079
>>Chris: Yep!
1262
00:59:11,079 --> 00:59:15,079
>>Barbara: I should say
that joint topic, joint attention.
1263
00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:18,480
So that's-- that experience
really informed me
1264
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:20,719
because I thought, 'Well, if
you're talking about things
1265
00:59:20,719 --> 00:59:24,639
that the kid is not
interested in at all,
1266
00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:25,840
you can talk all you want.'
1267
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,000
[laughs]
>>Chris: Yeah.
1268
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,400
>>Chris: And it's pretty
much how I am too.
1269
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:30,719
I mean, just saying,
you know.
1270
00:59:30,719 --> 00:59:32,719
[laughter]
1271
00:59:32,719 --> 00:59:34,519
>>Matt: Well, everyone
to a certain degree, right?
1272
00:59:34,519 --> 00:59:35,920
>>Chris: And that's what--
that's what I mean.
1273
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:36,719
>>Barbara: Exactly.
1274
00:59:36,719 --> 00:59:39,679
So that's why we have more
than one friendship, you know.
1275
00:59:39,679 --> 00:59:45,760
And it's because they address
different aspects of ourselves.
1276
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,199
So...
1277
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:51,719
Anyway, I don't know
if that answers your...
1278
00:59:51,719 --> 00:59:53,400
>>Chris: That's a
really great story.
1279
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:53,880
>>Barbara: OK.
1280
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,159
Yeah, I just like
I can't forget it.
1281
00:59:57,159 --> 00:59:59,039
Obviously.
1282
00:59:59,039 --> 01:00:00,360
>>Chris: Yeah.
1283
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,639
It's a good human
life lesson kind of thing.
1284
01:00:03,639 --> 01:00:06,119
>>Barbara: And it reminds
me, too, of the...
1285
01:00:06,119 --> 01:00:07,880
thing that I said
several times
1286
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,880
in the last couple
of days that...
1287
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,400
it grows, this feeling,
but that...
1288
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,320
we have to trust...
the...
1289
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,239
students as much as get
them to trust us.
1290
01:00:20,239 --> 01:00:25,760
And those happen...
you know, jointly...
1291
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:26,960
So...
1292
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:28,800
Just trusting,
you know...
1293
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,000
the intelligence of...
1294
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,480
whoever I'm with,
you know?
1295
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,440
Everyone has
their own form--
1296
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,280
everyone, everyone,
everyone--
1297
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,320
has their own form
of intelligence including...
1298
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,480
the most...
1299
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,239
The child that we might
think is the least intelligent
1300
01:00:49,239 --> 01:00:52,440
has their own form
of intelligence, you know?
1301
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:53,760
And...
1302
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,639
It's up to us
to maybe...
1303
01:00:56,639 --> 01:00:59,159
recognize it and trust that.
>>Matt: Yeah, yeah.
1304
01:00:59,159 --> 01:01:00,920
>>Chris: Because it
could be profound.
1305
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,800
You just don't know.
>>Barbara: Yeah, exactly.
1306
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,280
Probably is profound.
>>Chris: Yeah.
1307
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:07,800
>>Barbara: You know?
>>Chris: Yeah.
1308
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:09,519
>>Barbara: And...
>>Chris: That's what I believe.
1309
01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:11,679
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
1310
01:01:11,679 --> 01:01:14,440
>>Matt: And your
stories make me...
1311
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,920
realize and
believe, too, that...
1312
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,960
that they have that
intelligence there and it's...
1313
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,360
there waiting for--
to share it.
1314
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,320
That's innate.
>>Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
1315
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:24,679
>>Matt: That there's
never been a child
1316
01:01:24,679 --> 01:01:25,840
that didn't
want to share.
1317
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,119
>>Chris: Yeah.
>>Barbara: Right.
1318
01:01:27,119 --> 01:01:28,039
>>Matt: And so...
1319
01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:30,199
that's what I think about
when you say-- when we...
1320
01:01:30,199 --> 01:01:32,760
when we look to them,
when we respect them.
1321
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,280
>>Barbara: Respect. Yeah.
>>Matt: We look again.
1322
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:36,039
>>Matt: We're
looking again...
1323
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:37,960
and listening. Yeah.
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1324
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:39,440
>>Matt: We're listening for...
1325
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,280
that essence
of who they are...
1326
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:42,599
that interest...
>>Barbara: Yeah.
1327
01:01:42,599 --> 01:01:45,079
and that it
all kind of can...
1328
01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:48,039
grow from there.
>>Barbara: Yeah... yeah.
1329
01:01:48,039 --> 01:01:50,199
>>Matt: It's a good lesson, huh?
To learn.
1330
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:51,159
[Chris laughs]
>>Barbara: A really good less--
1331
01:01:51,159 --> 01:01:54,880
It's a life-- it's a
lifetime lesson, believe me.
1332
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,039
[laughs]
1333
01:01:57,039 --> 01:01:58,840
Yeah.
[laugh]